Standard Infantry Practice Sabre

[Chris Holzman]

Whole sabre: 610g and 88cm long

88 cm for the whole sabre? That's quite short, isn't it?


And btw. what is the cross section on a sabre?

Best regards,
Jákup

I meant 88cm for the blade from shoulder to point. The typical sabre like an M1860 or French M1803, M1822, etc. is that of a rectangular blade body with a V shaped edge for the first two thirds or so of the length, transitioning to a very flat lozenge type of shape for the last third. Other sabres through history have had all kinds of shapes if you consider the quill/pipeback type of blades, or the karabela blades that are kind of T shaped with multiple fullers, and so on.

[Jakup M]

The typical sabre like an M1860 or French M1803, M1822, etc. is that of a rectangular blade body with a V shaped edge for the first two thirds or so of the length, transitioning to a very flat lozenge type of shape for the last third. Other sabres through history have had all kinds of shapes if you consider the quill/pipeback type of blades, or the karabela blades that are kind of T shaped with multiple fullers, and so on.

Ok. Thanks for the great explanation.

Now, the only measurements missing is the width of the heavy sabre's blade. I'm thinking around 1" and tapering to 1/2 " at the point?

Best regards,
Jákup

[Chris Holzman]

The typical sabre like an M1860 or French M1803, M1822, etc. is that of a rectangular blade body with a V shaped edge for the first two thirds or so of the length, transitioning to a very flat lozenge type of shape for the last third. Other sabres through history have had all kinds of shapes if you consider the quill/pipeback type of blades, or the karabela blades that are kind of T shaped with multiple fullers, and so on.

Ok. Thanks for the great explanation.

Now, the only measurements missing is the width of the heavy sabre's blade. I'm thinking around 1" and tapering to 1/2 " at the point?

Best regards,
Jákup

Masiello doesn't give widths for the blade of what he considers right for his military practice/fencing/dueling sabre - Parise does, however, and specifies 20mm at the base of the blade tapering to 10mm at the point. If one measures and scales the drawings in Parise and Del Frate's books, based on an assumed 88cm length, they correctly scale to 20mm and 10mm. I haven't ever printed out the illustration from Masiello to try the same exercise with, but it should be pretty close. Many extant blades, including both of my own antiques, are 16mm or so at the base, tapering to 10mm at the point. I think 20mm and 16mm were the dominant sizes. The sabre Barbasetti is photographed with in his book is probably closer to the 20mm size than not, as well.

[Jakup M]

Masiello doesn't give widths for the blade of what he considers right for his military practice/fencing/dueling sabre - Parise does, however, and specifies 20mm at the base of the blade tapering to 10mm at the point. If one measures and scales the drawings in Parise and Del Frate's books, based on an assumed 88cm length, they correctly scale to 20mm and 10mm. I haven't ever printed out the illustration from Masiello to try the same exercise with, but it should be pretty close. Many extant blades, including both of my own antiques, are 16mm or so at the base, tapering to 10mm at the point. I think 20mm and 16mm were the dominant sizes. The sabre Barbasetti is photographed with in his book is probably closer to the 20mm size than not, as well.

But isn't this pretty much the same as the specs for the light sabre blade? Some of the Napoleonic and US Civil War sabres, I've seen, measure around 30 mm.

- Jákup

[Chris Holzman]

Masiello doesn't give widths for the blade of what he considers right for his military practice/fencing/dueling sabre - Parise does, however, and specifies 20mm at the base of the blade tapering to 10mm at the point. If one measures and scales the drawings in Parise and Del Frate's books, based on an assumed 88cm length, they correctly scale to 20mm and 10mm. I haven't ever printed out the illustration from Masiello to try the same exercise with, but it should be pretty close. Many extant blades, including both of my own antiques, are 16mm or so at the base, tapering to 10mm at the point. I think 20mm and 16mm were the dominant sizes. The sabre Barbasetti is photographed with in his book is probably closer to the 20mm size than not, as well.

But isn't this pretty much the same as the specs for the light sabre blade? Some of the Napoleonic and US Civil War sabres, I've seen, measure around 30 mm.

- Jákup

Well, yes - I thought that is what you were asking for, so the stats I gave you are for the Italian military practice/fencing/dueling sabre according to Parise and Masiello (which by extrapolation also matches Radaelli/Del Frate pretty closely).

I have an antique US M1860 that I bought as a bare blade and hilted as a shashka. It is 27mm at the base, and its roughly 15mm wide about 4cm from the point where the thrusting tip starts to really narrow dramatically. As a shashka, its about 1lb 12oz, the pob is about 7.5 inches out. In M1860 mountings, they're about 2.3lbs or so, and pob is generally about 3.5 to 4 inches or so out (been a long time since I've handled one, so I'm guesstimating wildly on those from memory)

[Jakup M]

No, I was actually asking about the width of the heavy sabre's blade. The light sabre is to be 13 to 20mm at the ricasso, and taper to a 10 mm point - from the specifications you've submitted, summarized in an earlier post.

But, for the heavy sabre, perhaps a width of around 25-30 mm at the ricasso and 15-20 mm at the point would be good? Or 1-1½", tapering to ½-3/4".

Best regards,
Jákup

[Chris Holzman]

No, I was actually asking about the width of the heavy sabre's blade. The light sabre is to be 13 to 20mm at the ricasso, and taper to a 10 mm point - from the specifications you've submitted, summarized in an earlier post.

But, for the heavy sabre, perhaps a width of around 25-30 mm at the ricasso and 15-20 mm at the point would be good? Or 1-1½", tapering to ½-3/4".

Best regards,
Jákup

It's not something I'm particularly up on or qualified to speak about. Other than interest in older Hungarian and Polish sabres, I generally am just not that interested in most of the wider blades. Russ Mitchell would be more qualified to speak to the wider blades than I would, by far. As I recall, those tend to be wider, but slightly thinner, or have lots of fullers and rather T shaped in cross section.

I do, of course, love the US M1860 and 1872, and the Italian 1871/3s, but they're not something I'd really want to fence with on a regular basis - occasionally sure, but not often. The 1860, I think I gave some general specs for previously, is probably my favorite of those types of blades. The quill/pipe-back design of the 1871/3 makes me a little curious as to the durability of such a blade for fencing - I'm afraid it'd be likely to set or break.

[Jakup M]

Yes those are really beautiful weapons. And, although they are cavalry sabres, they're something more akin to what we wish to be using in our club.

You also mentioned, in an earlier post, that you'd prefer a blade with a thickness between 3/16" to 1/4". That would also be for the light blade, correct? Based on the US M1840 and M1860, the heavy blade should to be between 1/4" to 3/8" thick.

Btw., does anyone know of a site or book that has all of these measurements for a large number of military sabres gathered in one place?

Best regards,
Jákup

[Chris Holzman]

Yes those are really beautiful weapons. And, although they are cavalry sabres, they're something more akin to what we wish to be using in our club.

You also mentioned, in an earlier post, that you'd prefer a blade with a thickness between 3/16" to 1/4". That would also be for the light blade, correct? Based on the US M1840 and M1860, the heavy blade should to be between 1/4" to 3/8" thick.

Btw., does anyone know of a site or book that has all of these measurements for a large number of military sabres gathered in one place?

Best regards,
Jákup

Yes - also for the lighter sabre.

As far as the book question goes - I know there is a book out there, in Polish, which collects a lot of data on Polish and Hungarian sabres. I think that website which has the zablocki info, has a couple of pages posted from it. I've seen a few other pages as well in the past, but not sure where.

[Jakup M]

Thanks for clarifying Chris, and thanks for the recommendation. The reason I asked was that I think it would be pretty cool to be able to run some statistics, in order to come up with these standard specification, based on a large data set of historical sabres.

On another note, I've just noticed a fault in the specifications I've gathered so far. I've listed the POB for the heavy sabre as being 8 cm / 3 1/10", based on the Austrian sabres, we've been using. These are on the light side, so the POB should be somewhere further out, between 12-19 cm / 5"-7,5". This is quite a large spread, so perhaps in the middle at 16 cm / 6 1/3"?

Best regards,
Jákup

[Jakup M]

Ok, to round of this tread, I will summarize the specs. I've gathered, in metric and imperial measures:

Common characteristics:
Curvature: 25,4 mm / 1", center blade
Point: smoothly rounded, not bulbous or rolled
Fullers: single, wide, stopping at ricasso
Tang threading: standard 6x1 metric
Grip: 130-160 mm / 5 1/10 - 6 1/3"
Blade stock thickness: 5,8-6,3 mm / 3/16 - 1/4"

Light sabre:
Total weight: 620 g / 1lb, 5.86oz
Blade:
- length: 860 mm / 34"
- CoB: 100 mm / 4"
- width:
- ricasso: 13 to 20 mm / ½-4/5"
- point: 10 mm / 2/5"

Heavy sabre:
Total weight: 907 g / 2 lbs.
Blade:
- length: 860 mm / 34"
- CoB: 160 mm / 6 1/3"
- width:
- ricasso: 25-30 mm / 1-1½"
- point: 15-20 mm / ½-4/5"

Feel free to propose further changes.

Best regards,
Jákup

[Ulrich von L...n]

Nice summary.
I think it is a good idea to allow certain tolerances for your data. For instance:

- blade curvature: 25.4 - 40mm (40 mm was the upper limit for sport sabre in 1908)
- blade length: 860-880mm (again the upper limit for the above)
- blade thickness at the ricassso: min. 4mm (4-6.3mm)
- the total weight of the light sabre: min. 500-550g (500-550-620g)
(again during the London Olympic Games this tolerance was between 470 and 780gr).

You may argue that you want a specification for infantry practice sabre. OK, but among the people who codified the above-mentioned fencing rules in the first decade of the 20th century or competed under these rules were many serving army officers, presumably comfortable with such characteristics.

[Chris Holzman]

Nice summary.
I think it is a good idea to allow certain tolerances for your data. For instance:

- blade curvature: 25.4 - 40mm (40 mm was the upper limit for sport sabre in 1908)
- blade length: 860-880mm (again the upper limit for the above)
- blade thickness at the ricassso: min. 4mm (4-6.3mm)
- the total weight of the light sabre: min. 500-550g (500-550-620g)
(again during the London Olympic Games this tolerance was between 470 and 780gr).

You may argue that you want a specification for infantry practice sabre. OK, but among the people who codified the above-mentioned fencing rules in the first decade of the 20th century or competed under these rules were many serving army officers, presumably comfortable with such characteristics.

I agree completely. I'd prefer something in the 620 to 650g or so range probably.. Just enough that it feels dramatically different from a modern fencing sabre, but not so heavy as to not be comfortable to work with for the average person for some length of time - I particularly would prefer to practice and fence with a weapon of the specs that people from my school (historically speaking) fenced and practiced with - and of course, as I'm sure pretty much everyone has figured out by now, that is my bias, and I'm not all that interested in the various other systems; I have my hands full enough as it is.