Michal Starzewski's sabre manual

[Bladerunner]

That's tempting. But...

The language he uses is difficult, pompatic and complicated in style. Many fragments are enigmatic or completely out of context. Some parts are nigh impossible to translate into comprehensive English due to language differencies. As I prove in different thread I'm no linguist, mere diletante.

However...

If you are interested I can try to convert the main ideas into digestible English, compendium style, so you could compare his techniques with already known stuff. A complete translation is a damn difficult task and I bow my head to Bart Walczak who was brave enough to try it.
You may be dissapointed by this source, though. Apart from expressing nostalgic views on glorious Polish past there's a little about fencing itself. And even then it's not sure how it relates to styles older then 19thC.

In fact most of Polish sabre fencing you may seen is a modern interpretation, and "retrofitting" modern sabre fencing to match heavier weapons. So called Polish Sabre style is an enigma as there's no known sources and manuals apart from this and another one from 19thC. Sad really.

If somebody is interested in the original, there is a link on Polish Arma site
http://www.thearma.pl/badania.html last PDF on the bottom.

As for translation PM me, perhaps we can work something out.

[Bladerunner]

Yes I have a full English translation, but I can't share it because I promised not to. To be honest, I wouldn't get excited about it, it's not very good.

You mean tranlation or the manual?

[admin]

The manual. I can only assume that the translation is good.

[Ulrich von L...n]

Some additional data on this Polish manual.

1. There is very little available information on Michał Franciszek Starzewski (1801-1894). Basically everything known about him is summarised in a very short article on Polish wiki.

2. One thing is clear: there isn't a complete sabre fencing manual written by Michal Starzewski, only some fragments in the Polish book of his grandson, Jozef Starzewski, published in 1932.

Title: Ze wspomnień o Michale Starzewskim
OCLC Number: 239588413
Description: 135 p. : ill. ; 25 cm. (worldcat.org)

Chapter 3 of the book - Michala Starzewskiego traktat "O szermierstwe" (Treatise on fencing) - contains those fragments with 5 pictures: depiction of 2 sabres, one blade, depictions of cutting directions. Several copies of this chapter can be found all over the net. One of the best is (OCR version):

http://files.ordugh.org/szermierka_ksia ... rstwie.pdf
OCR: Adrian (Sauron) Siemieniak
Scanning: Bartłomiej (Feniks) Walczak

Versions of Fig. 4 and 5 can be found in Zablocki's book on page 17.

3. In 1989 Wojciech Zabłocki, Polish fencer and Olympic medallist, published a book Cięcia prawdziwą szablą (), which contains an analysis of Michal Starzewski's fragments, and also his own interpretation of old Polish sabre fencing, with his own drawings. I think it is important to underline that all drawings, including all fencing guards, actions etc. in this book were created by Zablocki, who is by the way an architect. So that is why he was able to create very nice, accurate and useful drawing of historic Polish, Hungarian sabres from different museums, with dimensions, cross-sections etc. An English abstract of the book can be found on kismeta site (see OP).

Zablocki_0_small.jpg (27.35 KiB) Viewed 1249 times

The whole book - without the bibliography & English abstract - can be downloaded from:
http://www.wrzuc.to/H0gOdm.wt

An example of beautiful drawings in this book:

Zabloc_4.jpg (140.04 KiB) Viewed 1249 times

[Ulrich von L...n]

An interesting workshop handout from Daria Izdebska:

http://www.historical-academy.co.uk/wor ... 0Sabre.pdf

with a short analysis of Starzewski's manual:

"The earliest actual Polish treatise on the sabre is the 1830 ‘On Fencing’ by Michał Starzewski, thus a
19th century source trying to recreate a 17th century art and therefore not entirely reliable. It is
incomplete and interspersed with many anecdotal stories and tidbits of cultural information, but
provides some solid defining features for the style. There are also German sources which seem to
correspond to Starzewski, supported by mentions of Polish fencers going to Leipzig or Dresden and
teaching the Germans. From there we learn of Die Höllische Polnische Quarte – The Hellish Polish
Fourth, a cut most feared by the Germans."

"Typical features of the Polish ‘school’
* cross-cuts (sztuka krzyżowa - The Polish ‘Cross-cut’ School ) and/or feints (single and double)
* cuts to the hands more frequent than cuts to the torso
* the Hellish Polish Fourth (from right low upwards aimed at the left hip and stomach of the
opponent)
* Polish moullinette (from low to high, as opposed to the ‘French’ moullinette from high to low)
* Division into shallow (hand, wrist, forearm) and core (torso) cuts
* Feints that follow the pattern: CORE > SHALLOW, SHALLOW > CORE
* Elbow kept straight; cuts come from the wrist or from the shoulder (from horseback)

Example Drills with the Feints
1. Opponents start with their sabres low. Attacker: feint to the head. Defender: raises sabre to block
high. Attacker: cuts to the outside of the arm.
2. Opponents start with their sabres low. Attacker: feint to the head. Defender: raises sabre to block
high. Attacker: cuts to the inside of the arm.
3. Opponents start with their sabres low. Attacker: downward feint to the arm. Defender: moves their
sabre to block, Attacker: cuts to the torso with the Hellish Polish."

Sources:
"Durski, A., Szkoła szermierki siecznej. (1879)
Mańkowski W., Szermierka na szable. (1920)
Sawicki, Z., Traktat szermierczy o sztuce walki polską szablą husarską – podstawy. (2004)
Starzewski, M., O Szermierstwie. (1830, published by grandson in 1930s)
Werner, J.A., Versuch einer theoretischen Anweisung zur Fechtkunst im Hiebe Mit 20 erläuternden
Kupfertafeln. (1824)
Zabłocki, W., Cięcia Prawdziwą Szablą. (1989)
---------------- . Szable Świata. (2011)"

[Ulrich von L...n]

After some search based on Daria's sources I have found this:

kurze_polnische_Q.png (25.13 KiB) Viewed 1161 times

Kurze polnische Quarte (short Polish quarte)
From Johann Adolf Werner (1824) manual.

[admin]

Really interesting stuff!
Does anyone here know why that cut is called 'fourth'? In conventional numbering that would be cut 3. Is it because the hand is kind of in quarte?

[KeithFarrell]

That is the handout for the lesson that Daria gave at FightCamp earlier this month. We don't quite know why that cut is called a "fourth", the reason is probably somewhere inside the German manual by Werner. I believe that Marcus Hampel has offered to work with Daria on that manual to see what can be gleaned from it. Hopefully we will have some sort of answer before too long!

[Alex Kiermayer]

Very interesting thread!

Another mention of the polish Quart is in "Anweisung zum Hiebfechten" by Friedrich Anton Wilhelm Roux (1849): http://books.google.de/books?id=C7EUAAA ... en&f=false

It mentions the "polnische Quart as a strike that travels upwards from below, nearly vertically and targets the lower arm or the groin area. You can see a picture of it at figure 21 on plate XI, quite at the end of the book.

Regarding calling it a fourth: In German swordsmanship of this era the strikes are divided according to the hand position. All strikes coming from the outside to the inside (palm up) would be called fourth (Quart), high, middle or low. All strikes coming from the opposite direction would be called third (Terz). The meaning of first (Prim) and second (Second) changed a little bit over time. At the beginning a strike straight upards from below with the pack of the hand facing left would be called a first (Prim) while later on the Prim was the strike straight downwards.

@Ulrich: The book on womens sabre fencing you posted in the manuals section is quite interesting because I can see certain similarities to the German sabre/Schlaeger methods. Especially the Prim (downwards on the head) with the elevated hand is quite typical for this.

Also in German swordplay you have the division into half and full strikes. Again the definition of this changed a little bit over time. But mostly it means strikes without (sometimes with a lean) or with a lunge.

Would be interesting to see how this methods are related.



Servus,
Alex

[Ulrich von L...n]

Plate XI from Anweisung zum Hiebfechten by Friedrich Anton Wilhelm Roux (1849):

taf_XI.png (26.33 KiB) Viewed 1062 times

... and targets the lower arm or the groin area.

The latter target area explains its name: Die Höllische Polnische Quarte.

[admin]

Hmm, isn't this example from Roux actually a cut 4 (in the British numbering), rather than a cut 3 as shown previously?

[Ulrich von L...n]

Just another double checking:
Roux: OK, Plate 11: OK (Alex's reference).

It seems to me that the left fencer (Fig 21) on Plate 11 (Roux) performs the same cut - die (Höllische) Polnische Quarte - as the right fencer on Plate 13 from Werner's manual (Daria's source).

[Ulrich von L...n]

The library on the AHA website has been updated with a new translation!

Daria Izdebska has translated some excerpts from "On Customs and Traditions in the Reign of Augustus III" by Jędrzej Kitowicz. This is a very interesting document with several mentions of the sabre in 18th century Polish society, with plenty of information about the social and military context in which it was used.

For anyone interested in the study of Polish sabre, or even just social history in central and eastern Europe, this is an excellent addition to the AHA library.

http://www.historical-academy.co.uk/rep ... itions.pdf

[John H]

Not sure if this answers anything, but Daria mentioned the Polish cut 3 is the German cut four. So the Dam Polish (hellish Polish) fourth would actually be third in the Polish system.

[Ulrich von L...n]

On HEMA Alliance forum, Eastern European Saber:

"A father son team (Sieniawski) have the 1800's manual and some German resources they say link up. If you watch their videos you can see how they are based on the 1800's manual. I've corresponded with them a bit. They primarily work in the film industry."

In an article (bez-karabeli.pdf, Kalashnikov, June 2011) on the Sieniawski family - father and two sons - Sergey Mishenev mentioned a 16th century Prussian treatise on Polish sabre, apparently found by Bartos Sieniawski.

It would be very interesting to find out some additional information on their German sources.

[Ulrich von L...n]

The relevant part from the above-mentioned article:

Но вот полгода назад (то есть приблизительно осенью 2010 г.) один из сыновей Януша – Бартош Синявский сумел отыскать на просторах интернета ещё один уникальный трактат по фехтованию. Это оказался прусский трактат по польской сабле, датируемый XVI в., то есть временем основания польской сабельной школы. Новая находка удивительным образом соединилась с
учебником Старжевского, восполнив утраченные части и создав, наконец, полное очертание традиционной фехтовальной техники. Рассказывая об этом открытии, Януш Синявский до сих пор не скрывает радостного волнения, восхищаясь тем, как точно совпали две книги, разделённые, без малого, тремя веками. При этом он уточняет: «Как две рукавицы»!

It might be just a typo - it is easy to leave one or two "I" when typing XVIIIth century, but it is definitely Prussian, definitely predates Starzewski's manual and completes it. Sieniawski said: "They are like a pair of gloves".

To be honest, I'm highly sceptical about this newly found Prussian treatise. Further in the article they said that an additional half a year is needed to complete the analysis / evaluation of this source.

At the end Mishenev's email is given:
smishenev@mail.ru
for those who want to participate in next seminar on Polish sabre.

P.S. It is most definitely not a typo, because at the end of the Russian quote Sieniawski talks about two books separated by almost three centuries. 1830 - 300 = so we are somewhere between 1530-1550.

[Ulrich von L...n]

Also it is important to remember that:

There isn't a complete sabre fencing manual written by Michal Starzewski, only some fragments in the Polish book of his grandson, Jozef Starzewski, published in 1932.

Title: Ze wspomnień o Michale Starzewskim
OCLC Number: 239588413
Description: 135 p. : ill. ; 25 cm. (worldcat.org)

Chapter 3 of the book - Michala Starzewskiego traktat "O szermierstwe" (Treatise on fencing) - contains those fragments with 5 pictures: depiction of 2 sabres, one blade, depictions of cutting directions.

It is also very strange that AFAIK there isn't a genealogy study of Starzewski family, or a study which could clarify based on what kind of documents the grandson published his book.

From Sieniawski's site:

Lately the knowledge of fencing technique of the use of sabre in the Poland of former times extended considerably. It is a result of the search of new written sources complementing the residual treatise of Michał Starzewski from 1830. The reaching of historical German materials extending and complementing that work enabled the progress in the process of reconstructing it. In effect, after nearly 200 years we managed to obtain extremely attractive and practically unknown full image of the old polish school of fencing.

Source: http://sieniawskifencing.com/en/seminaria.php

[Ulrich von L...n]

Mishenev's article about Sieniawski's seminar on Polish sabre in 2011 can be found in the archive of Kalashnikov magazine:

http://www.kalashnikov.ru/upload/medial ... rabeli.pdf