Disarms in sparring

[David A Teague]

It's amazing what pretty castles can be built out of sea froth.

Hold off guys. Quit taunting the man. I have just found some video of him, and you can see clearly he is a very, very dangerous person. I suggest we all be more polite in the future if we value our skin. Please forgive me Dean for all my insults.

http://www.chrisdaneowens.com/video/shine_flash.html

I am not worthy.

Hello BD,

Your acting like a adolescent here.

While I don't agree with Dean on many of his points I don't feel the need to act like a jerk.... just to walk away and come back later to reply.

Just like I told Dean, cool your jets, Man. Let's do this civilly and with panache.

Hello Dean,

Free Play should allow the student to use all "the tools" they have been taught to date... not as A-B, B-C but allow them to learn how to apply the different techniques in more free flowing ways... A-T, T-B, etc.

All sword systems have multiple choices where to proceed from the first contact of blades (or the first movement of the sword in play). Freeplay allows the student the chance to become more comfortable with the "chaos" that can happen when somebody is trying to strike you with a sword with intent and they apply "the tools" in a different way than drills flowed.

Freeplay can help a student lean how to read measure better. Even though a good instructor should work measure drills into training, students sometime need the pain of being struck a few times to truly understand the importance of reading measure.

A point you keep bring up is "freeplay is not the test of a system".

Yes... you're right.

"Proofing" your system is the test your keep referring to.

I'm 51, have permanent damage done to my body from a number of sport injuries that includes the worst one of all, being struck by a speeding car while bicycling 12 years ago. I was unable to walk for 4 months, had to undergo surgery, had to use a cane to walk with for over 2 years ( and sometimes still need it on a bad day) I weight 45 pounds more than I did the day I was run over, yet I still hit the gym, train, study, & teach swordplay... and freeplay. I am a shell of my former self but that doesn't mean I still can't defend myself... I can.

How does this "factoid" prove your repeated point? If I freeplayed with anybody & everybody on this thread with either my Longsword or backsword, using the systems I teach & know, then everybody here from BD, Corpsie, & Anders kicked my ass... it doesn't mean my two systems aren't sound, it just proves that I'm no longer a viable swordsman.

I get it... but the while you keep tossing that chestnut out for someone to bite, the real issue here is:

Is Freeplay a useful tool in training a swordsman?

The answer is: Yes. When done within a program and with guidance.

Cheers

and I wish you all a Very Happy New Year!

David Teague

[bigdummy]

It's amazing what pretty castles can be built out of sea froth.

Hold off guys. Quit taunting the man. I have just found some video of him, and you can see clearly he is a very, very dangerous person. I suggest we all be more polite in the future if we value our skin. Please forgive me Dean for all my insults.

http://www.chrisdaneowens.com/video/shine_flash.html

I am not worthy.

Hello BD,

Your acting like a adolescent here.

While I don't agree with Dean on many of his points I don't feel the need to act like a jerk.... just to walk away and come back later to reply.

You seem a little confused amigo.

We don't know each other, don't f*cking call me names, I'm not an adolescent, I'm a grown man, and you aren't my daddy so do not tell me what to do or we aren't going to get along. Beyond that I really don't care what you do and I'm willing to talk about whatever.

Dean is already on my shitlist.

BD

[Dean]

All sword systems have multiple choices where to proceed from the first contact of blades (or the first movement of the sword in play). Freeplay allows the student the chance to become more comfortable with the "chaos" that can happen when somebody is trying to strike you with a sword with intent and they apply "the tools" in a different way than drills flowed.

Freeplay can help a student lean how to read measure better. Even though a good instructor should work measure drills into training, students sometime need the pain of being struck a few times to truly understand the importance of reading measure.

If I could show you the various rules for engagement, I think you may have some idea of sorting the chaos. I believe I could show less than 2 inches changes the whole dynamics of what to do. Again demonstrating that, and letting people practice the right move. (Static drilling) Then allowing the various different engagements (Dynamic drilling) provides a strong feedback mechanism for both the trainee’s and the trainer.

Do you think none of our trainee’s ever gets hit while practicing?
While I try to limit bruising etc, you can’t make an omelette without cracking a few eggs.
The feedback mechanism is getting hit, if you’re not doing it right. I can assure you the person doing the “losers” role does everything in their power to “win”. One our complaints when we cross train with others are we hit too hard and natural tendency to throw people. (Grappling) (No we don’t injure people)They simply are not used to someone actually trying to hit them.

I find most people who free play too early, become good at sniping rather than be able to free play with type of hits to the body that would decapitate or cause major injury. (No I am not saying that sniping or hit to the arms or hands is not a valid method, however they appear to be deficient in the close fight)
For example the photos you posted (thanks very much), you possibly haven’t had enough practice to pull of grappling and disarms to make it effortless. (Again very difficult to tell because it is free play, so do not wish to prognosticate on your abilities/skill level etc)

We would practice dynamic drilling somewhat similar to your photos, where the person would be doing their utmost to frustrate or win against the person who is supposed to be able to pull of the disarm or grapple. The difference would be the static start position.

I get it... but the while you keep tossing that chestnut out for someone to bite, the real issue here is:

I was beginning to wonder if there was/is anybody. Thankyou for restoring my belief that someone will get it.

Is Freeplay a useful tool in training a swordsman?

The answer is: Yes. When done within a program and with guidance.

I think the only area we might disagree on here is the “when”.

[David A Teague]

It's amazing what pretty castles can be built out of sea froth.

Hold off guys. Quit taunting the man. I have just found some video of him, and you can see clearly he is a very, very dangerous person. I suggest we all be more polite in the future if we value our skin. Please forgive me Dean for all my insults.

http://www.chrisdaneowens.com/video/shine_flash.html

I am not worthy.

Hello BD,

Your acting like a adolescent here.

While I don't agree with Dean on many of his points I don't feel the need to act like a jerk.... just to walk away and come back later to reply.

You seem a little confused amigo.

We don't know each other, don't f*cking call me names, I'm not an adolescent, I'm a grown man, and you aren't my daddy so do not tell me what to do or we aren't going to get along. Beyond that I really don't care what you do and I'm willing to talk about whatever.

Dean is already on my shitlist.

BD

Hello BD,

I didn't realize I'd called you any names. I thought I was pointing out behavior that wasn't strengthening your position.

My apologies for raising your ire.

Dean,

Thanks for looking at those photos, they were taken 2 years ago so my German longword has come a lot farther. The smaller fencer had only been training with me for 8 or so months, but his having a 25 year base in EMA (and being an instructor in his style of study) made ground work with him tough. In the one photo I started to throw him from the side but the slippery bastard was able to get in front of me. I still thew him.

Those fights over the 4 days we did them were full out "as to the death" and I was willing to drop my sword to toss him for the crowd or disarm him if he paused in his sword play for any reason.

Cheers,

DT

[Anders Linnard]

While I don't agree with Dean on many of his points I don't feel the need to act like a jerk.... just to walk away and come back later to reply.

You are giving this little Dean troll way too much credit. He is acting pompous because he thinks that is the same as getting respect. What he has shown of his teaching method is absolutely basic, everything he has posted is included in our teaching method as well and can be read about in any physical education book. I guess these basics are what he means when he says professional teaching method... Which to me just adds to how unimpressed I am by this guy.

Basically what he has done so far is putting drilling up against sparring and defending that with basic teaching methods and ignoring anyone who says that both are valuable. Now he's throwing you a bone trying to gain some allies on this board. And we are basically just feeding his ego all the while he is being a complete f*cking clown. BD just took him to the level he deserves.

My guess about this guy is that he greatly exaggerates his merits, his group consists of less than ten people with little background in MA, they train once a week with little work out and that he is a club guru with hardly any testing outside of his own little fraternity. He has preached this so much in his own little group that his credibility relies on it. Basically he has done the opposite from what GHFS did when we decided to always be able to improve and change the way we learn.

I may be wrong and hopefully I am, because I love when new and knowledgeable people come along, even if we get off on the wrong foot. But I am not holding my breath for this one, his reluctance to show us anything of worth, his narrow mindset and that he ignores (or answers with snide remarks) when people challenge his mantra, tells me that this guy is just another expression of the 80's ninja.
/Anders

[Ilkka Hartikainen]

Hi,

trolling or not, I actually agree that free play is rather a tool for measuring one individual's skills than evaluating the validity of an interpretation.

The results and looks of the free play tell of the skills the individual combatant has as well as of the skills of their teacher.

However, if the interpretation is s**t, it is unlikely that the individual combatant would be doing so well, so it sort of tells of that too, but in the case of Liechtenauer-stylist against Fiore-stylist, or two stylists of different Liechtenauer schools, or even slightly differing (but at least somehow justifiable) interpretations of Fiore the results of how well the individuals actually did doesn't prove much of the quality of the interpretation.

And, if one Liechtenauer instructor's students all beat everybody else in free play, that may also tell of that instructor's abilities as a teacher more than 'which style or interpretation is better'. Just imagine what he could do if he was teaching Fiore instead!

Yours,
Ilkka

[Matclarke]

I haven't been following this thread very closely, so this point may have been already made, but I'm going to assume it hasn't.

Freeplay/sparring/swordyhittyfriendy is fun. It is my favourite part of this whole HEMA thing. It is also the favourite part of HEMA for many of my HEMA friends. It is also what my non-HEMA friends are most interested in when my hobby comes up.

If there was no freeplay, I wouldn't be studying HEMA and I guess nor would many other people. Therefore, freeplay serves a purpose to keep people interested in HEMA and allow it to grow and spread.

[Matclarke]

And, if one Liechtenauer instructor's students all beat everybody else in free play, that may also tell of that instructor's abilities as a teacher more than 'which style or interpretation is better'. Just imagine what he could do if he was teaching Fiore instead!

Well for one, he would become better at whinging about how Liectenauer style interpreters are 'suicidal' as he constantly watches his Fiore students beaten in tournaments.

[Anders Linnard]

Hi,

trolling or not, I actually agree that free play is rather a tool for measuring one individual's skills than evaluating the validity of an interpretation.

The results and looks of the free play tell of the skills the individual combatant has as well as of the skills of their teacher.

I view it the same way as with the great triangulation, different means of evaluating. But sparring is a way to test the system rather than the individual technique. If nothing else the system is the most important part of interpretation in my mind. On top of that it is quite common that I look at my students sparring and give them information on what they should think about when doing a certain technique, and they correct this. I myself often find that a technique I can do slowly isn't complete until I can do it in sparring. And it usually only takes one successful attempt at it to repeat the technique in sparring. So even though it cannot, and should not be the only measure of a technique or interpretation, it is useful. On top of that sparring is of course one of the best way to develop fighting skills and as Matt pointed out, fun!

/Anders

[Ilkka Hartikainen]

Anders,

indeed, I agree. If you can't do it you can't do it, and there's no way around it. The context matters, of course, some things work better in a certain context than others. One question, though: by system, do you mean a system of swordsmanship, a framework of rules etc. that are supposed to function in a certain way in a perfect world, or a system of teaching the material to a student? Or a combination of both?

- Ilkka

[Anders Linnard]

Anders,

indeed, I agree. If you can't do it you can't do it, and there's no way around it. The context matters, of course, some things work better in a certain context than others. One question, though: by system, do you mean a system of swordsmanship, a framework of rules etc. that are supposed to function in a certain way in a perfect world, or a system of teaching the material to a student? Or a combination of both?

- Ilkka

With system I mean the glue that ties the techniques together, although the concept of system is of course bigger than that.

/Anders

[Ilkka Hartikainen]

Ah, yes. Now I get your point. I agree 100%, an individual technique is best to be evaluated (read: learned) first in some other context, and sparring will show you whether you understand how and when to utilize it in a less friendly setting.

- Ilkka

[The Salmon Lord]

Dean is already on my shitlist.

BD

Its a bloody long list.

[Anders Linnard]

Ah, yes. Now I get your point. I agree 100%, an individual technique is best to be evaluated (read: learned) first in some other context, and sparring will show you whether you understand how and when to utilize it in a less friendly setting.

- Ilkka

Exactly.

/A

[bigdummy]

Dean is already on my shitlist.

BD

Its a bloody long list.

No, not really. In the HEMA world, three or four people maybe.

There are a few more I don't like that much or get irritated with, but it takes a lot to inspire my outright contempt. Something Dean can be proud of.

You for example, while occasionally wrongheaded, slightly opinionated and certainly eccentric, aren't even truly crazy let alone irritating,

BD

[The Salmon Lord]

I may however be the only person you've ever met who is nicer online than off. I'm a tool when I'm in my cups.

[Axel]

The video quality is crappy but there are disarms in this video at 2:26 and at 2:46:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StzjjgURH0Q




Edit: the first disarm can be seen in better quality in this clip at 1:13:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sftNLEPXzs4

[Motley]

I know that this is a little late to the party but I hadn't realised this was on film, in fact until I watched the video I hadn't even remembered doing it! it just happened.

This is a little clip form one of the sparring matches I had over the summer. I am the one in the red gambeson and the mail.

http://vimeo.com/3252918

[bigdummy]

Nice posts guys.

I had a similar one sparring with Scott Brown a few weeks ago,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpZm4Pqk ... annel_page

Which was like yours kind of by accident, spontaneous. We had something similar happen with shinai more recently but it wasn't filmed.

I'd like to see more clinically correct ones, involving locks or stripping away with the pommel etc., like we learn in Lichtenauer and all of us have done in drill. I have had one or two partial successes of this type while sparring, but nothing on film yet.

Keep these vids coming, I like what I'm seeing and would like to see more.

(by the way Alex the music is a nice touch )

BD

[MugginsToadwort]

So I finally took some sparring videos. They are not pretty- we're rusty, and I''ve changed a massive amount of material in the last few months, so we are not terribly fluid. However, in the accompanying videos, I pull off three pieces of grappling, including a disarm, against one of my more aggressive students.

And then I get a serious clobber under the arm, which hurt like hell, but with no permanent damage. We are using the Arnott paddeds that one of my students created about 18 months ago, built on a piano wire base.

MACS sparring vid- Francois vs. James