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MS I.33's missing pages speculation

PostPosted: 11 Mar 2015 22:01
by Pendevsom
Tower of London MS I.33, or the Walpurgis fechtbuch. I could not find an internet forum thing about the missing pages and so this is a proposal to have it as a topic in this forum.
Below are three images of speculative sequencing. I have not spoken to an expert about this, and this may have all already (all all ready?) been thought of, and I have my doubts about my placement of a few of the images.

- There used to be three image files here, but there were problems with them, and you can see better ones in the Facebook Wiktenauer album on the topic, by Michael.

Re: MS I.33's missing pages speculation

PostPosted: 12 Mar 2015 04:49
by Michael Chidester
I've been idly looking at this for the past few weeks. The most recent versions are in this album:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 8115872248

Re: MS I.33's missing pages speculation

PostPosted: 12 Mar 2015 08:16
by Reinier
Pendevsom wrote:and this may have all already (all all ready?)


and this all may have already?
and all of this may have already?

Re: MS I.33's missing pages speculation

PostPosted: 12 Mar 2015 09:49
by Pendevsom
Michael Chidester wrote:I've been idly looking at this for the past few weeks. The most recent versions are in this album:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 8115872248


Me too, I've been doing it for the past two to three weeks too! Although I've had a spreadsheet file with the images for a bit over a year. Thank you Wiktenauer guy for the web-page called "Anonymous sword and buckler images". I recently found out that you can see Facebook pages without a Facebook account, and saw on Wiktenauer's Facebook page two sequences of the missing images, and so wanted to join in. Thank you for that hyperlink to your Facebook album on the topic, it is interesting.

Re: MS I.33's missing pages speculation

PostPosted: 13 Mar 2015 02:09
by Michael Chidester
So, here's the primary issue with what you lay out above that you need to figure out. When the Ms. I.33 was rebound in 2012, they examined the quires and now know that exactly eight folia are missing, and where those folia originally fell. The results of that examination are in Forgeng's book (and also on the Wiktenauer page if, like me, you don't have $1000 to drop on Forgeng's book). So sequences that don't occupy those positions are not candidates for the "missing pages".

The other piece of this issue is that 8 folia have at most 32 images on them. Group 1 has 31 images in it, group 2 has 30. If you draw from both, you have 61 images and need some kind of explanation for where the remaining 29 came from.

Re: MS I.33's missing pages speculation

PostPosted: 13 Mar 2015 20:30
by Pendevsom
Oh, yes, I agree. So they both have close to 32 images, and 32 is a very nice number. I will therefore try to only use ones from a certain group in sequence. If the other group was ever part of the book, perhaps it was its own quire.

I've just noticed this:
00040.jpg
00040.jpg (228.94 KiB) Viewed 7661 times

The sword hand is below the buckler arm! That means it is not in response to a change of sword. I did not notice it before because I had it zoomed so far out to see many images at once.



This image here:
Image
This is the only picture in which they are both wearing their habits without a hood. It looks like the one on the right may be in the special second ward of the priest saint Walpurgis. The only other images without hoods have fancy clothes (apart from perhaps the one with them in skirts where one gets stabbed in the face). Maybe it is with a fancy clothes picture, or a picture that was never copied and so currently is a real missing page, or maybe a page that originally had Walpurgis but was changed to a hooded bloke by the copier.



PS:
Maybe there were two images of a shiltslac, one looking usual and the other with his foot behind his, and they were not both copied by the same artist because they were similar and they were fine with only copying one of them. Using two of them could bring us from 30 to 31.
Image
Image

Re: MS I.33's missing pages speculation

PostPosted: 27 Mar 2015 20:49
by Pendevsom
p31-p32_002.jpg
p31-p32_002.jpg (118.44 KiB) Viewed 7563 times

I like this sequence very much that is in Michael's Wiktenauer Facebook album, but I think it would make sense placed as in the image above if the sheets are in the right order. It seems this bind may have been shown on 26v which is apparently on the same sheet of parchment as the bit in the end with Walpurgis.
If these four images go here then we cannot have Walpurgis's ward introduced here, but a bit of the last leaf has been cut out.

Re: MS I.33's missing pages speculation

PostPosted: 13 Apr 2019 11:58
by Pendevsom
About four years later:

Here https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 8115872248 it says
"The RA Ms. I.33 in its present form consists of five quires, of which all but the first are incomplete; at least eight folia (32 plays) are believed to be missing, assuming it started with complete quires of four bifolia each: one folio between 8v and 9r, one between 14v and 15r, four between 16v and 17r, one between 25v and 26r, and one between 31v and 32r. Additionally, it is believed that the pages in the latter half of the treatise (quires 4 and 5, 19r - 32v) are not in the original order."

This is what I had been going on in 2015, but looking at the image sequence here https://www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/Walpurg ... h_(MS_I.33) at the picture section in the bottom, it says something different. It says two pages (four page-sides) are missing between 14 and 15 instead of only one, which would look strange because it means 17 is just half a sheet. It says just two pages are missing between 16 and 17. It says there's one missing between 19 and 20, going nicely with the missing one between 25 and 26. It says the final missing page was just after 32, not just before, which means 26 is just half a sheet.

Another difference is that in the "Contents" part of its Wiktenauer page it also says that the last missing page was just after 32, not before. This should be easy to solve if people know which sheets have been cut in twain.


ALSO
ImageImage
These ones gave me an idea, holding your blade with your left hand to get more strength to push your opponent's blade down.


PS 17th April 2019
This one too
Image

But this one doesn't have the left hand on the blade
Image

While this one looks like it does
Image

Re: MS I.33's missing pages speculation

PostPosted: 17 Apr 2019 06:55
by Pendevsom
Please disregard what I said above about which bifolia would have to be cut in half, I was assuming a neat four bifolia per quire.

Wiktenauer has a reference for the missing pages, Hester, J. (2012). A Few Leaves Short of a Quire: Is the “Tower Fechtbuch” Incomplete? Arms & Armour, 9(1), 20–24. doi:10.1179/1741612411z.0000000003. It agrees with the above about the first two quires comprising folia 1 to 14. It says that

The third quire has three folia. It has one bifolium, this being folia 16 and 17, and folio 15 is just half, from a bifolium being cut in half, which means there is a missing page between folia 17 and 18, folio 15 being correctly placed where it is. This plus the missing folia between 16 and 17.

The fourth quire (18 - 25) has eight folia, but two of them have been cut in half, placing one of their missing halves between folia 24 and 25, and the other between 25 and 26, making this quire be of five bifolia in total.

In the fifth quire folio 27 is also just a lone folio, putting the other half of the former bifolium between folia 31 and 32.

Different again!

Re: MS I.33's missing pages speculation

PostPosted: 20 Apr 2019 19:19
by Michael Chidester
As noted on the Wiktenauer page, the current work on the subject of missing leaves is Binnard and Jaquet 2016. Give it a read: http://dx.doi.org/10.1515%2Fapd-2016-0001