Trainers for smallsword

The practice of martial arts, research, interpretation and modern practice. Ancient to c.1900. Worldwide, Eastern and Western.
Open to public view.

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby MEversbergII » 29 Jul 2014 13:37

So you are saying that typically the "point of the V" should face left - so the blade bows in towards that when thrusting tierce. However, when using Hope's method I should reverse it so the "point of the V" is to the right?

Actually, though these look great, there are some issues. I can't seem to get the pommel off one, and the other might have the grip epoxied on (haven't tried a hammer yet though). This is unfortunate because they both have the blades mounted differently - one with "point of V" up, and the other down.

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

Best Advice on the Whole Site
User avatar
MEversbergII
Major
 
Posts: 876
Joined: 26 Oct 2012 06:00
Location: Lexington Park, Maryland

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby Phil C » 29 Jul 2014 14:23

MEversbergII wrote:So you are saying that typically the "point of the V" should face left - so the blade bows in towards that when thrusting tierce. However, when using Hope's method I should reverse it so the "point of the V" is to the right?

Nope- t'other way round. Flat (and fuller) directed to the inside line, apex (and thus flexion) to the outside line when in tierce. Reversed for hanging guard
--Effete Snob--
"I have a sword to defend my honour. I have a stick to answer those without honour."

http://www.blackboarswordsmanship.co.uk/
User avatar
Phil C
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 2791
Joined: 03 Feb 2008 21:52
Location: Auld Reekie- Capital Village of Jockland

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby MEversbergII » 29 Jul 2014 17:13

Alright, so when I sort these out the point should be to the left, as I'll principally be doing Hope. Rotate it around for the common method. Mine should be like this blade: http://benjaminarms.com/sites/benjamina ... ee%202.jpg

And to make sure I was following ZWA's page right, the "point" of the V should be on the inside of the curve during the flex, being the one contracted for lack of a better term.

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

Best Advice on the Whole Site
User avatar
MEversbergII
Major
 
Posts: 876
Joined: 26 Oct 2012 06:00
Location: Lexington Park, Maryland

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby Phil C » 29 Jul 2014 17:38

Don't refer to epee de combat as they are mounted differently since they are held in sixte. Here is a pic of the standard set up with apex to the outside and base to the inside- http://www.lewisshaw.com/images/smallsword4.jpg
--Effete Snob--
"I have a sword to defend my honour. I have a stick to answer those without honour."

http://www.blackboarswordsmanship.co.uk/
User avatar
Phil C
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 2791
Joined: 03 Feb 2008 21:52
Location: Auld Reekie- Capital Village of Jockland

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby Dave B » 30 Jul 2014 20:33

Don't worry about blade set too much, as Phil says, it's not an Epee. You'll be thrusting in both Tierce and quarte, so it's always going to be 'the wrong way' half the time.

If your form is good, the blade will flex up towards the ceiling every time, whether the arrete or the flat is up.

If it isn't try making sure that your hand is traveling forward (parallel to the ground) during the lunge rather than in the direction the sword points, which will be angled down. It's faster and truer too. have a try on a cushion or pad stuck to the wall at chest height, and you should see what I mean.
Dave B
Major
 
Posts: 773
Joined: 07 May 2010 16:56

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby MEversbergII » 31 Jul 2014 16:21

Thanks, all. It looks like the pommel on one is just on really tight (hopefully not cross-threaded) so I'll have to find some way of leveraging it off sometime this weekend when I get back to them. They really are rather attractive setups, though they are really stiff. Nothing proper protection wouldn't handle fine, and in restricted drills it'll be nothing. I'll consider LP blades if she's interested enough with drills to start more contact-heavy work, and maybe something with a more smallsword-like setup. This is, I think, a good opportunity to explore parts and kits and the like.

Tangentially, if I wanted something more "spadroon" like in blade, where would be a good place to start looking? Are ZWA's rapier blades too narrow?

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

Best Advice on the Whole Site
User avatar
MEversbergII
Major
 
Posts: 876
Joined: 26 Oct 2012 06:00
Location: Lexington Park, Maryland

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby MEversbergII » 01 Aug 2014 17:36

With some filing, hammering and wrenching, I managed to get all the parts in the right order. Looks great! Masks are now on order from Darkwood (spiffy!), though they're out of town until the 11th. Is the DWA masks worth the wait or are they no different than any other in that general price range (60 / mask)?

For the jackets suggested earlier:
http://www.triplette.com/catalog.php?it ... egory%3D33
http://www.triplette.com/catalog.php?it ... egory%3D76

The first goes under the second so is the jacket sized with that in mind? Where does the plastron go - between them or under both? How does that change sizing?

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

Best Advice on the Whole Site
User avatar
MEversbergII
Major
 
Posts: 876
Joined: 26 Oct 2012 06:00
Location: Lexington Park, Maryland

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby KevinMurakoshi » 01 Aug 2014 18:52

MEversbergII wrote:Is the DWA masks worth the wait or are they no different than any other in that general price range (60 / mask)?


I'd say that they're probably equivalent to other $60 masks. I don't use a darkwood mask, so I can't speak to their quality. From a sport fencing side, (not HEMA), all the $60 masks are more or less equivalent. (I've heard that the absolute masks seem to hold up to crushing blows better than other brands).

The first goes under the second so is the jacket sized with that in mind? Where does the plastron go - between them or under both? How does that change sizing?


Generally the jackets are sized with that in mind. (undearm protectors are required for sport fencing). The way that most in this thread are using the term "plastron" is equivalent to "undarm protector." As such it's not an additional layer. Triplette's cut tends to be a bit baggy, so you should be able to fit the plate and underarm protector easily.

Plastron is also used to refer to a padded vest that is worn under the jacket (that no short sleeve), or sometime the "manplate" or plastic chest protector. That latter is worn under the jacket but above or below the underarm protector depending on the fencer's comfort.
KevinMurakoshi
Corporal
 
Posts: 41
Joined: 31 Jul 2008 22:20

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby MEversbergII » 01 Aug 2014 19:38

Yeah, I was considering the plastic ones. Alright, I'll go with the Triplet ones, once I figure my measurements out in their sizes.

By Absolute, did you mean their basic $60 mask: http://www.absolutefencinggear.com/shop ... cPath/1_11

Or this "HEMA" one?: http://www.absolutefencinggear.com/shop ... ts_id/1264

Not sure what makes them functionally different. Sadly, they're not as attractive looking as the stainless mesh on the DWA one. Shouldn't they all have the same crush resistance? Aren't all modern masks 1200N mesh?

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

Best Advice on the Whole Site
User avatar
MEversbergII
Major
 
Posts: 876
Joined: 26 Oct 2012 06:00
Location: Lexington Park, Maryland

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby KevinMurakoshi » 01 Aug 2014 19:57

MEversbergII wrote:By Absolute, did you mean their basic $60 mask: Or this "HEMA" one?:


I meant either. AFIK they are the same mask, one has a white bib the other black.

Not sure what makes them functionally different. Sadly, they're not as attractive looking as the stainless mesh on the DWA one. Shouldn't they all have the same crush resistance? Aren't all modern masks 1200N mesh?


All modern masks have a puncture resistance, not a crush resistance. The mesh on the mask must not spread when a small penetrator is used and 12kg of force applied (for detailed information on how the masks are tested, see the USFA or FIE rulebook(1)). This has little to do with crush resistance.

(1) In the US CEN level 2 (FIE) compliant masks are not required. CEN2 (FIE) requires stainless mesh, thicker wire and more puncture proof bibs. $60 masks rarely have those features.
KevinMurakoshi
Corporal
 
Posts: 41
Joined: 31 Jul 2008 22:20

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby KeithFarrell » 02 Aug 2014 11:05

A while back I wrote an article about the construction of the fencing mask, finding out precisely how they are made and what the different ratings mean. MEversbergII, you might find this helpful: http://www.historical-academy.co.uk/files/research/keith-farrell/Construction%20of%20a%20Fencing%20Mask.pdf
-- Keith Farrell --
Academy of Historical Arts: website | Facebook | blog
Fallen Rook Publishing: website | Facebook
User avatar
KeithFarrell
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 1162
Joined: 18 May 2010 18:38
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby MEversbergII » 03 Aug 2014 06:18

Alright, canceled DWA's for the AF "HEMA" masks.

Keith, that was a good read, thanks.

Later this month: Jackets, plastrons and gloves. Think the plastrons do much of anything against any other HEMA weapon?

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

Best Advice on the Whole Site
User avatar
MEversbergII
Major
 
Posts: 876
Joined: 26 Oct 2012 06:00
Location: Lexington Park, Maryland

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby Jeremy S. » 15 Aug 2014 04:56

Please don't laugh. I wanted an inexpensive loaner smallsword that didn't look like it was put together with modern fencing parts. What I found was this Smallsword from Physical Chess
To be sure, it's not the most attractive item. It tips the scale at 19.2oz (545g) with a POB of .75in (19mm) from the guard. It came with a no.2 epee blade.
Jeremy S.
Corporal
 
Posts: 35
Joined: 16 Mar 2012 21:40

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby MEversbergII » 15 Aug 2014 18:03

Not bad at all! Maybe after I've gotten all the pieces for my outfit and one of those LP blades, I'll pick up a pair of those as well. Just standard practice blades, I assume? How easy is it to disassemble it should you need to replace the blade?

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

Best Advice on the Whole Site
User avatar
MEversbergII
Major
 
Posts: 876
Joined: 26 Oct 2012 06:00
Location: Lexington Park, Maryland

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby MEversbergII » 30 Dec 2014 15:05

To anyone who's interested, I wrote a review here:

https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thre ... rd-trainer

I have some replacement blades coming in the mail today (just basic foil blades). I don't think any heavy contact smallsword is going to happen, and the ZWA ones freak out my only willing partner a bit much. Should have them mounted tomorrow or Thursday, at which point I'll share my thoughts.

Thanks again for helping sort me out! If I ever get some free time to really get playing at smallsword I've already got a few new models in mind.

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

Best Advice on the Whole Site
User avatar
MEversbergII
Major
 
Posts: 876
Joined: 26 Oct 2012 06:00
Location: Lexington Park, Maryland

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby HPFlashman » 07 Apr 2015 21:01

A bit late to the party, but as I quite accidentally happened to order a copy of Milo Thurstons book on Hope (very good it is), rounding off a Wyern order of French streetfighting and British sabre, I have pondered on the small swords a bit and came over these swords here http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Weapons.html while browsing Leon Paul.

Could any of these be considered small sword simulators?
Best regards,

Harry

"Singlestick, then may be looked upon as a gentle exercise, suitable for the early middle age" C. Phillips-Wolley
User avatar
HPFlashman
Sergeant
 
Posts: 103
Joined: 27 Nov 2010 02:18
Location: Norway

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby knirirr » 07 Apr 2015 21:08

HPFlashman wrote:A bit late to the party, but as I quite accidentally happened to order a copy of Milo Thurstons book on Hope (very good it is), rounding off a Wyern order of French streetfighting and British sabre, I have pondered on the small swords a bit and came over these swords here http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Weapons.html while browsing Leon Paul.

Could any of these be considered small sword simulators?



Thanks - I'm pleased that you liked the book.

This:

http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Theatre_Weapon.html

Is rather similar to the fleuret described in the back of the book.
"FOR, to my certain knowledge I can affirm, that no People in the World, have a swifter Hand in Thrusting, nor any, a more loose or uncertain Parade, than the French."
User avatar
knirirr
Gentleman
 
Posts: 1628
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 09:30
Location: Oxford

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby Ian Brackley » 25 Apr 2015 04:01

I've just recently started practicing with these. They are Hanwei 37" "rapier" blades that have been cut down to 35"

They are definitely on the heavier and longer side for smallswords. They perhaps could be better regarded as "late transitional rapiers" or "early smallswords"

E. Castle, after examining extensive collections of antique weapons theorized that one reason the circular parry was not seen in French smallsword texts until the second half of the 18th century was due the weapons of the period c. 1680-1720 being heavier than examples one might encounter c. 1750-1820.

That said they are perfectly capable of performing core smallsword techniques like double feints and their heft demands the user resist any impulses to "grip the weapon too tightly or make their motions too wide or too forceful.

They also produce a most satisfying "clang" during beats and other blade actions.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153818643346110&set=pcb.850274911677152&type=1&theater
Ian Brackley
Cadet
 
Posts: 4
Joined: 08 Mar 2015 20:20

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby Reinier » 29 Apr 2015 13:28

Alas, the FB link is not open to me...
…en A alſoo liggende kan aen B, ſonder eenigh beletſel, met de zijde van ſijn hooft, op het aengeſicht van B, ſoo veel ſtoten als hy begeert. – Nicolaes Petter, 1674.

http://www.bruchius.com/
List of publications
User avatar
Reinier
Major
 
Posts: 853
Joined: 12 May 2009 16:37
Location: Rhoon

Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby knirirr » 29 Apr 2015 14:30

Reinier wrote:Alas, the FB link is not open to me...


Me neither.
"FOR, to my certain knowledge I can affirm, that no People in the World, have a swifter Hand in Thrusting, nor any, a more loose or uncertain Parade, than the French."
User avatar
knirirr
Gentleman
 
Posts: 1628
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 09:30
Location: Oxford

PreviousNext

Return to Historical Martial Arts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 8 guests

cron