Trainers for smallsword

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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby MEversbergII » 19 Feb 2014 17:55

Will do! Hoping to budget in for the proper trainers within a few weeks - nearing the end of a buy process on my house - so in the mean time I'll be reading. I also dug out my copy of Highland Swordsmanship and started browsing the New Method section while waiting for the newer book - intend to cross reference them as needed. Noticed Milo wrote a forward for it - back in 2001 - so I take it you've been at this a long while!

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When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby knirirr » 19 Feb 2014 18:00

MEversbergII wrote: Noticed Milo wrote a forward for it - back in 2001 - so I take it you've been at this a long while!


IIRC I first encountered Hope (The Scots Fencing Master) when I was in the DDS, which would have been 1997-98. I went to Oxford at the end of 1998 where I got hold of the New Method and started work on that, and I founded the LSD in 1999. I think I started modern fencing properly (not counting mucking about at school) in 1989.
"FOR, to my certain knowledge I can affirm, that no People in the World, have a swifter Hand in Thrusting, nor any, a more loose or uncertain Parade, than the French."
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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby Keith P. Myers » 22 Mar 2014 18:36

I've been waiting forever for Amazon in the US to carry Milo's book. But it looks like its not going to happen and I finally gave up and ordered it direct from Wyvern. The shipping cost as much as the book itself, but I'm looking forward to seeing it!

EVergsberg, I'm in Rockville MD and have done a fair bit of work on Hope's Method myself. We should try and get together some time. :)

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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby knirirr » 22 Mar 2014 19:01

Sorry about that, Keith. I did ask the publishers, but they said that US distribution was not under their control.

I hope that you find it worth the expense!
"FOR, to my certain knowledge I can affirm, that no People in the World, have a swifter Hand in Thrusting, nor any, a more loose or uncertain Parade, than the French."
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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby MEversbergII » 24 Mar 2014 02:38

Keith P. Myers wrote:EVergsberg, I'm in Rockville MD and have done a fair bit of work on Hope's Method myself. We should try and get together some time. :)

Keith


I wouldn't be the least bit opposed! I haven't gotten to order any training material yet, though. This short sale buy I'm doing decided to dump an onerous financial burden on me last minute. Wouldn't have been so bad if I had forewarning, but that wasn't the case!

As soon as I've gotten some material, I'll shoot you a message. I've been trying to improve my local study group and outside contacts would be great.

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby Keith P. Myers » 25 Mar 2014 02:23

I have a pair of Smallsword trainers from Zen Armoury. :wink:

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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby MEversbergII » 25 Mar 2014 13:49

Well that would certainly speed things up! Once it stops being brutally bloody cold we'll see what schedule we can work up.

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby MEversbergII » 11 Jun 2014 03:54

Ok so I closed on my house today, which means I can finally pursue materials! Here's what I have picked out:

Blade: http://www.absolutefencinggear.com/shop ... B14%7D1192
Grip: http://www.leonpaulusa.com/acatalog/Amb ... .html#a79B
Pommel: http://www.absolutefencinggear.com/shop ... cts_id/246
Guard: http://www.absolutefencinggear.com/shop ... cts_id/535
Misc: http://www.absolutefencinggear.com/shop ... cts_id/249

Does this all look square?

Bummer on the grip I need not being available at AF! The shipping on that isn't too terrible though.

Comes to about $45 each, inclusive of all shipping charges. That is quite inexpensive.

Keith, shot you a PM about a meet up if you're still around the boards as of late.

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby knirirr » 11 Jun 2014 08:47



That looks pretty similar to the stuff we use.
If you can get them I do recommend these blades (part LP16), though. They are light and robust.
"FOR, to my certain knowledge I can affirm, that no People in the World, have a swifter Hand in Thrusting, nor any, a more loose or uncertain Parade, than the French."
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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby Dave B » 11 Jun 2014 12:18

I'd absolutely second that - cheap practice Epee blades are so easy to snap, and when they do it's typically about 6 inches back from the button. Even if they break straight accross, it's a narrow end that would push through into someone no problem. After seeing a few pop I wouldn't use them again. Certainly you wouldn't want to use them without a decent fencing jacket and breeches.

I've never seen one of the Leon Paul V profile blades snap. They do fail eventually, but in my experience they fold over rather snap off, so there is no sharp end left.
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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby knirirr » 11 Jun 2014 12:21

Dave B wrote:I've never seen one of the Leon Paul V profile blades snap. They do fail eventually, but in my experience they fold over rather snap off, so there is no sharp end left.


Indeed. I've only had one fail so far and that was due to wrestling on the ground and rolling on it rather than delivering a thrust.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/knirirr/12290185103/
"FOR, to my certain knowledge I can affirm, that no People in the World, have a swifter Hand in Thrusting, nor any, a more loose or uncertain Parade, than the French."
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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby MEversbergII » 11 Jun 2014 18:13

Hm, one of those would double the cost of the unit - probably putting them well out of the hands of my practice club. How are the practice blades no good? Are these different from what modern fencing clubs use? That's a fast game, quicker than any drill work I'd be doing, but I'm not wanting to risk anyone's safety.

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby Reinier » 12 Jun 2014 06:55

knirirr wrote:
Dave B wrote:I've never seen one of the Leon Paul V profile blades snap. They do fail eventually, but in my experience they fold over rather snap off, so there is no sharp end left.


Indeed. I've only had one fail so far and that was due to wrestling on the ground and rolling on it rather than delivering a thrust.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/knirirr/12290185103/


:oops: still sorry :oops:
…en A alſoo liggende kan aen B, ſonder eenigh beletſel, met de zijde van ſijn hooft, op het aengeſicht van B, ſoo veel ſtoten als hy begeert. – Nicolaes Petter, 1674.

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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby knirirr » 12 Jun 2014 09:32

MEversbergII wrote:Hm, one of those would double the cost of the unit - probably putting them well out of the hands of my practice club. How are the practice blades no good? Are these different from what modern fencing clubs use? That's a fast game, quicker than any drill work I'd be doing, but I'm not wanting to risk anyone's safety.


I used to use the cheaper style of blade 20 years ago for modern fencing and also for HEMA until the new LP blades came out. The older style would break from time to time, sometimes very soon after purchase, sometimes after years. Breaking near the point was common. I've also seen them break when used for modern HEMA training. Of course, the chance of anything going seriously wrong is probably quite low, and if you've got decent jacket, mask and breeches and fence carefully you'd most likely be OK.

So, you could probably get away with the cheaper blade, but if/when you can afford it I'd move to the new LP blades if I were you.

Reinier wrote::oops: still sorry :oops:


No problem. It was a useful demonstration of the utility of these blades, at least.
"FOR, to my certain knowledge I can affirm, that no People in the World, have a swifter Hand in Thrusting, nor any, a more loose or uncertain Parade, than the French."
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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby MEversbergII » 12 Jun 2014 15:42

Hm. They broke under "drilling conditions" or sparring conditions?

What I may do is purchase two sets with LP blades (fiance and I), and let the "troops" get the cheaper ones, if they're not liable to break under "drill conditions". Then, we'd have one set for sparring, and I wouldn't be out partners due to a lack of funds on their part. I'll have to confer with the other half to make sure she's still on board so I don't end up with a pair of trainers and no partners.

Are LP blades the ones used by Olympic fencers?

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby knirirr » 12 Jun 2014 16:44

MEversbergII wrote:Hm. They broke under "drilling conditions" or sparring conditions?


I've seen both, though most breakages tend to occur in assauting.
Clearly there's more danger of greater force during assaults, but during a drill there will be repeated thrusting and this can also put stress on a blade.

MEversbergII wrote:Are LP blades the ones used by Olympic fencers?


I believe that they have switched to them now.
"FOR, to my certain knowledge I can affirm, that no People in the World, have a swifter Hand in Thrusting, nor any, a more loose or uncertain Parade, than the French."
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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby KevinMurakoshi » 12 Jun 2014 16:52

knirirr wrote:
MEversbergII wrote:Are LP blades the ones used by Olympic fencers?


I believe that they have switched to them now.


As an sport epee fencer, I know a number of people who fence with the Leon Paul blades. Not everyone does though. Personally I can't stand the things, and use BF FIE blades instead.

In terms of durability the V blades can't be beat, but not everyone likes the weight distribution or handling.
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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby knirirr » 12 Jun 2014 16:54

KevinMurakoshi wrote: Personally I can't stand the things, and use BF FIE blades instead.


What are the prices and durability of those?
"FOR, to my certain knowledge I can affirm, that no People in the World, have a swifter Hand in Thrusting, nor any, a more loose or uncertain Parade, than the French."
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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby KevinMurakoshi » 12 Jun 2014 17:03

knirirr wrote:
KevinMurakoshi wrote: Personally I can't stand the things, and use BF FIE blades instead.


What are the prices and durability of those?


They're pretty durable, I break about one every two years or so. They're not cheap however, I usually am paying about $135 wired. Leon Paul sells them for about 89 pounds.

I like them because they are relatively stiff without being heavy, and have a light and agile point with very little point drift in disengagements. The LP blades felt like there I never knew exactly where they were pointing since they were a bit floppy. I'm certain that issue is less with a #2 blade, but it drives me nuts. (but then I'm a hand sniper)
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Re: Trainers for smallsword

Postby knirirr » 12 Jun 2014 17:10

Thanks for the info.

KevinMurakoshi wrote:The LP blades felt like there I never knew exactly where they were pointing since they were a bit floppy. I'm certain that issue is less with a #2 blade, but it drives me nuts. (but then I'm a hand sniper)


They seem fine to me, but then I am using the no. 2 and thrusting primarily for the body with the requirement that there be sufficient bend to represent 5-6" of penetration. I can see why you might find the longer version less useful.
"FOR, to my certain knowledge I can affirm, that no People in the World, have a swifter Hand in Thrusting, nor any, a more loose or uncertain Parade, than the French."
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