Smallsword options?

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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby knirirr » 23 Oct 2012 15:25

Stevie T wrote:Given me a lot to think about, though I'll probably end up studying Hope as he is at least British so I can work directly from the MS.


A good choice.
Now to decide if you will go for the most excellent New Method, or his earlier common method.
"FOR, to my certain knowledge I can affirm, that no People in the World, have a swifter Hand in Thrusting, nor any, a more loose or uncertain Parade, than the French."
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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Stevie T » 23 Oct 2012 15:55

knirirr wrote:
Stevie T wrote:Given me a lot to think about, though I'll probably end up studying Hope as he is at least British so I can work directly from the MS.


A good choice.
Now to decide if you will go for the most excellent New Method, or his earlier common method.


I'm just pulling sources together at the moment, so I'll have to read all his stuff before I can make a decision. Going to have a look through Blackwell while I'm about it.

All while I'm finally pulling together all my work on Ledall, so I may be sometime.
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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Phil C » 23 Oct 2012 16:01

Stevie T wrote:I'm just pulling sources together at the moment, so I'll have to read all his stuff before I can make a decision.

I suggest printing it all out, then taking a craft knife and cutting out all the bits that relate to fencing, and putting everything else to one side. That proved to be the only way I could wade through his turgid and repetitive prose and doggerel. He had a servicable argument and system, but needed an editor...
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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Stevie T » 23 Oct 2012 16:07

Phil C wrote:
Stevie T wrote:I'm just pulling sources together at the moment, so I'll have to read all his stuff before I can make a decision.

I suggest printing it all out, then taking a craft knife and cutting out all the bits that relate to fencing, and putting everything else to one side. That proved to be the only way I could wade through his turgid and repetitive prose and doggerel. He had a servicable argument and system, but needed an editor...


That looks like a very good idea!
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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Joolz » 23 Oct 2012 16:19

By the way, Phil, I think you mean the 1796 Officer's Sword. Again, not a true smallsword, but if you don't fancy something with pas d'ane it'll do nicely (except for the folding shell guard....). Also, even cheaper, the 1840 US NCO Sword, similar styling but heavier hilt (the pommel/grip are one casting). Repros of these can be picked up for less than £40, and just need a LP blade:
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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby knirirr » 23 Oct 2012 16:27

Phil C wrote:I suggest printing it all out, then taking a craft knife and cutting out all the bits that relate to fencing, and putting everything else to one side. That proved to be the only way I could wade through his turgid and repetitive prose and doggerel. He had a servicable argument and system, but needed an editor...


I rather enjoyed reading it all.
However, as many people don't, I have written a book on the topic. If I can ever get the photographs sorted out then it's almost ready to go.
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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Joolz » 23 Oct 2012 16:53

And back on to the boring subject of swords (as opposed to their masters) here's pretty much the cheapest option for a 'true' smallsword, the Deepeeka. It's obviously brass, but is solidly made (if you can get over the styling....), and will cost you €69 (£55) including scabbard (wood, leather, brass). The Colichemarde blade is mild steel, so you'll be chucking that, and replacing it with a Leon Paul.....

They do another one, which is like a brass version of the Hanwei one, but I haven't seen one for sale through my usual sources yet....
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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Phil C » 23 Oct 2012 16:54

knirirr wrote:I rather enjoyed reading it all.

As do I, however when trying to deduce a curriculum from it it's different matter. It'll be exactly the opposite problem that Stevie has with Ledall!
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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Dave B » 23 Oct 2012 17:12

Or right at the late end there is McArthur - probably the easiest to read as he was a naval captain and therefore of a scientific bent, and it was specifically written for young men who did not have the opportunity of working with a fencing master. Starts from the basics, clear diagrams etc. the only problem is he isn't a fan of commanding and disarms. I started with McArthur and then looked at the disarms from Angelo.

More recently Phil and Ian have converted me to a bit of Liancour, which I like because about his first piece of fencing advice is to draw the sword and in one motion hit the other guy in the face with the pommel if he hasn't had the sense to step back.
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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Dave B » 25 Oct 2012 17:25

Joolz wrote:Dave, I contacted Sport 7 about getting hold of castings for their hilt - they wanted €80 each plus delivery (based on 4 off). They were open-ended about availability (which sugggested they didn't have any, and weren't going to cast any anytime soon....). I let it drop, and I see they have, too, judging by their site....


Possibly Coincidentally, I've just had an Email from Sport 7 to say that they are now listing all the component parts they have available directly on thier website. they seem to be the same parts that ZWA list, but rather more expensive. but given the impossibility of dealing with ZWA they still might be a better bet.

Image
Image
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This set might make a reasonable simulator hilt for about 90euros (£72)

The same set of bits would cost about £36 from ZWA, but I can't get them to give me shipping costs, so I have just about given up on them (unless anyone else wants a set).
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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Joolz » 25 Oct 2012 21:50

Dave,

We ought to put our heads together as we seem to be duplicating each other's work!!!!

I contacted ZWA back in the first week of August about those very components. After a month (!) and a number of reminders, I got a smart-ass response from 'zenboy' Walter that he couldn't give me a shipping cost because he didn't know how much the parcel would weigh or what size it would be without making the parcel up and he wouldn't do that without a firm order (a circular argument....) and I should do like all his other overseas customers and give him an open order and let him charge whatever he fancied to my credit card. He assured me postage would be reasonable, of course.....

I told him to forget it, and made my own smallswords instead......

But yeah, the Sport 7 ones are ZWA, as far as I can tell.

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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Phil C » 25 Oct 2012 22:29

Mr Ogden-Quinn has let me know he is working on steel hilts that will be similar to the Martinez smallsword foil. Details to follow when he gets his studio set up.
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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Dave B » 25 Oct 2012 23:06

Joolz wrote:
I told him to forget it, and made my own smallswords instead......


Joolz


I saw the pics, very nice.

It's very annoying though. To me these are just the right thing for practice weapons (for early smallsword at least). Steel, fairly sturdy, a reasonable approximation without being poncy, and the right price. sort of thing you don't mind chucking in a kitbag. If they hadn't messed me about (I tried this a couple of years back too) I'd have ordered a set, and if they worked I'd have ordered a batch to make up and pass on. As it is it's just infuriating.
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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Keith P. Myers » 28 Oct 2012 12:36

knirirr wrote: I have written a book on the topic. If I can ever get the photographs sorted out then it's almost ready to go.


(Raising hand enthusiastically) Put me on the list! I would love to see this and would be the first to order it! :)

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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Keith P. Myers » 28 Oct 2012 12:37

Stevie T wrote:
I'm just pulling sources together at the moment, so I'll have to read all his stuff before I can make a decision. Going to have a look through Blackwell while I'm about it.


Didn't Blackwell just plagiarize Hope's early work and change the title from "The Scots Fencing Master" to "The English Fencing Master"??
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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Keith P. Myers » 28 Oct 2012 12:40

What do you gentlemen think of this, with a 32 inch Musketeer blade? Is it essentially what was mentioned above?

http://www.zenwarriorarmory.com/catalog ... egory%3D70

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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Dave B » 30 Oct 2012 10:57

I think it looks OK for earlier smallsword. I guess there are nicer blades out there, but then I think that you can probably swap the blade later easily enough.

The only thing I wouldn't like is that the grip looks fully round in cross section, where I preffer oval or sort of rounded off rectangle so that you can easily feel where your edge alignment is, but that would be easily fixed.
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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Keith P. Myers » 10 Nov 2012 13:32

Just got a pair of these in the mail:

http://www.zenwarriorarmory.com/catalog ... egory%3D70

I like them! They do have a rounded grip as Dave pointed out, but since your thumb contacts the cross indexing doesn't really seem to be an issue. The balance seems to be good. They are light and fast in the hand. And best of all, I got them within 1 week of ordering them!

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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Keith P. Myers » 12 Nov 2012 17:42

Keith P. Myers wrote:
Stevie T wrote:
I'm just pulling sources together at the moment, so I'll have to read all his stuff before I can make a decision. Going to have a look through Blackwell while I'm about it.


Didn't Blackwell just plagiarize Hope's early work and change the title from "The Scots Fencing Master" to "The English Fencing Master"??


Just wanted to clarify this. I have read more than once that Blackwell supposedly plagiarized Hope's early work. But I can now say...this is NOT true. I have taken a good look at both. Blackwell somewhat copies Hope's format in that he forms his instruction around a Scholar/Master dialogue, but his content definitely does not match Hope's. Blackwell is a good source for early Smallsword. His instruction is pretty straight-forward and easy to follow. However, Hope's instruction is much more in-depth even considering the fact that Hope is somewhat verbose. :wink:

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Re: Smallsword options?

Postby Dave B » 23 Nov 2012 21:28

Keith P. Myers wrote:Just got a pair of these in the mail:

http://www.zenwarriorarmory.com/catalog ... egory%3D70

I like them! They do have a rounded grip as Dave pointed out, but since your thumb contacts the cross indexing doesn't really seem to be an issue. The balance seems to be good. They are light and fast in the hand. And best of all, I got them within 1 week of ordering them!

Keith


My own take on the same thing, inspired by this conversation. Same guard, grip and pommel, shortened tang, Leon paul No.2 steam Epee V blade, rectangular section grip. Here it is at test assembly, sorry about the bad photo, used a cheap phone as the camera is in the car and it is raining out.

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