HEMA's Santa wish list

[Gordon L]

Btw, it's taken a while, but I now have a major FIE-rules equipment supplier interested in some of the items I hear about most often.

What they are unconvinced about is the size of the market, compared with design and manufacturing investment required.

[admin]

Companies like PBT and Allstar are now selling HEMA-specific gear. I suspect that smaller more versatile companies like SPES will probably take over the market first though, as they can change designs quicker, make in smaller quantities and sell at lower prices.

Leon Paul and The Duellist have spoken about doing HEMA stuff for years, but we all spoke to them at various phases and just got bored of them sitting on their hands.

[The Salmon Lord]

Btw, it's taken a while, but I now have a major FIE-rules equipment supplier interested in some of the items I hear about most often.

What they are unconvinced about is the size of the market, compared with design and manufacturing investment required.

Thats because the market is pretty small, very disparate and has a strong individualist, or DIY, streak. Even when standard kit is available like masks people are constantly fiddling about trying to “improve” them or complaining about the price.

[Gordon L]

Yep, it's true.

Despite that, people do still to buy certain things pre-fab, like masks.

It's one reason why I think that, for safety gear, groups like the Fed could usefully work to arrive at a consensus on spec for safety equipment, which would allow the market to coalesce around some specific items, which would in turn bring costs down (good for buyers, and in turn for manufacturers) and investability up (good for manufacturers, and in turn for buyers).

It is a wee bit chicken and egg, however, which is never an easy thing to tackle.

The SPES back-of-mask cover is the sort of item that shows promise, but something more highly integrated into masks strikes me as having fewer safety issues to do with thrusts from the front, for example.

[Marc]

Gloves are the main thing. We have masks. We have some nice sword manufacturers (tho a good uk based Feder maker would be nice). Jackets, forearm guards etc have multiple options.

At the moment gloves wise it's a case of shell out for Ensifers or use lacrosse gloves which are far from ideal and only offer minimal protection. I'm playing with the idea of making my own leather covers for my lacrosse gloves to give them a bit more but that is only because of the options available. I would much rather be able to spend £50 - £100 (£75 being the sweet spot for feeling I have spent money without skinting myself unnecessarily) on a pair of gloves that are designed for longsword, do not need to be imported and are preferably fingered rather than mittens.

[Dave B]

Nope. A broken blade goes straight through a sport fencing jacket and into Andy Damms' chest. We saw it. You would have to wear a plastron as well to meet sport fencing regulations, and even then I do not trust them to stop anything but a foil, epee or fairy sabre.

A couple of thoughts on that. If I remember right, Andy's jacket was an old cotton one, not one of the newer polyester types, and the fabric does rot and weaken over time. More importantly, fencing jackets are not supposed to resist a broken blade on thier own - that's supposed to require a jacket and a plastron. Modern fencing requires the use of both. My jacket is only one layer of 350n material, my plastron is 2 layers of 470n, giving three layers over the vital organs.

Also a foil is a pretty nasty thing. it is very light, but very thin, and almost parralel, so the broken end only has to cut a small number of fibres before it can slide through. once it is through it can just keep coming. OK it is flexible, but there are times (especially if people are closing body to body) when the body is in the way of it flexing and the full momentum / weight of the fencer is transmitted to the tiny broken end. in some ways a heavier stronger sword might be safer as there is no way it is going to end up so thin and parralel.

It would be nice to do some testing, but I think FIE plastrons are a pretty good bit of kit, and wouldn't be without one.

[admin]

I agree that in many circumstances a HEMA type blade will be safer when broken, because they tend to be a lot wider. But not all breaks go straight across the blade unfortunately - some result in a jagged or diagonal point. IRRC Paul Bennett invested in some of the newest Leon Paul breeches and stabbed them with various things (resulting in lots of holes straight through them). Paul could expand on that - I don't remember the details. What I do know is that the police and military have a hard time finding anything that is truly stab proof. The safest option would be (chain)mail, which is the only material trusted by butchers, fishmongers and shark handlers. I would say that next best to that is a layered garment akin to a gambeson.

[Paul B]

Basically the materials are stab resistant but you really are relying on having some surface area on the penetrating article.

A sharp 2 edged dagger will be stopped until any real pressure is applied. Once penetrated it is easily cut and torn.
That's with 2 layers of ripstop and some padding.

I would put it on par with heavy sail canvas for protection. Not useless, but not a forcefield.

[Paul B]

If anyone wants to send me broken sword bits to test break profiles then pm me here

[knirirr]

The main thing that we could do with is protection for the back of the head which costs little and doesn't involve any DIY. It's not very often that hits occur there, but occasionally people duck (e.g. if being pommeled) and it would be a good extra safety precaution.

[Dave B]

Basically the materials are stab resistant but you really are relying on having some surface area on the penetrating article.

A sharp 2 edged dagger will be stopped until any real pressure is applied. Once penetrated it is easily cut and torn.
That's with 2 layers of ripstop and some padding.

I would put it on par with heavy sail canvas for protection. Not useless, but not a forcefield.

I quite agree - Nothing light and non-restrictive is going to be a guarantee. However given that an FIE plastron is light, and pretty cheap, I think it's worth using one unless something better comes along. Similarly with Breeches - Not perfect, but surely better than tracksuit bottoms.

[Lyceum]

Basically the materials are stab resistant but you really are relying on having some surface area on the penetrating article.

A sharp 2 edged dagger will be stopped until any real pressure is applied. Once penetrated it is easily cut and torn.
That's with 2 layers of ripstop and some padding.

I would put it on par with heavy sail canvas for protection. Not useless, but not a forcefield.

I quite agree - Nothing light and non-restrictive is going to be a guarantee. However given that an FIE plastron is light, and pretty cheap, I think it's worth using one unless something better comes along. Similarly with Breeches - Not perfect, but surely better than tracksuit bottoms.

http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/350_Ne ... users.html

[Dave B]

Sure, I have a pair of those, but they are very warm and feel a bit cumbersome, so the only time I enjoyed wearing them was at Fightcamp in the rain. I preffer breeches.

[admin]

The main thing that we could do with is protection for the back of the head which costs little and doesn't involve any DIY. It's not very often that hits occur there, but occasionally people duck (e.g. if being pommeled) and it would be a good extra safety precaution.

Yes. Given how simple and cheap it would be to make I still can't quite believe that nobody is selling hundreds for £15 each and making a tidy profit.

[admin]

Similarly with Breeches - Not perfect, but surely better than tracksuit bottoms.

I think just about the best option would be a leather skirt, as Hutton and his contemporaries wore. I have often considered buying one of the £25 leather welding aprons from Ebay, as that would be £25 well spent I think.

[admin]

One of these, worn under the jacket and protruding below as a skirt, would IMO be better protection than plastron and breeches (and would be historically accurate for the 19thC):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003 ... 3Z561BVET7

[Dave B]

The main thing that we could do with is protection for the back of the head which costs little and doesn't involve any DIY. It's not very often that hits occur there, but occasionally people duck (e.g. if being pommeled) and it would be a good extra safety precaution.

Yes. Given how simple and cheap it would be to make I still can't quite believe that nobody is selling hundreds for £15 each and making a tidy profit.

It seems odd that someone like 'the knight shop' isn't doing them. I dunno if the SPES one works on other types of mask, and the delivery from an overseas supplier may put people off ordering a 23euro product from them, but I'm sure that something like the SPES design could be made that would fit on any fencing mask by attaching to the side-to-side elastic strap on a conventional mask or the main elastic strap on a leon Paul comfort fit. I wonder if Oz's supplier could do something. As you say I think they would sell hundreds.

One of these, worn under the jacket and protruding below as a skirt, would IMO be better protection than plastron and breeches (and would be historically accurate for the 19thC):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003 ... 3Z561BVET7

I'm not convinced. I can see the idea of a skirt being a good one, but I'd still want breeches underneath. on the upper body I think the armpit is a vulnerable area with thrusting weapons which an apron does not cover at all, and because even quite tough leather is pretty easy to push a sharp point though.

[admin]

FYI, I believe that both Oz and the Knight Shop have been working on back of head things, but I am not aware of how close to production either are.

[knirirr]

FYI, I believe that both Oz and the Knight Shop have been working on back of head things, but I am not aware of how close to production either are.

I'm keeping my eye out for this sort of development, and will be opening the LSD chequebook if something appears.

[bigdummy]

I would like to repeat for emphasis that PBT historical back-of-the head piece was really good, easy to put on and off, looked good etc.

Maybe Scott could chime in more about it, how much it costs etc.?

Bd