How much strength training does HEMA need?

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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Motley » 02 Apr 2012 19:09

I am in complete agreement that supplemental strength training is of benefit to HEMA, as is training with heavier weapons, and correct weight weapons.

I am not sure about the military press exercises == bad though even with what Steven said. Seeing as I don't have the background to argue the point I will just add this flip side to the coin and leave it at that http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/67 ... ifting.pdf
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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Lyceum » 02 Apr 2012 19:28

5x5 really isn't a hard and fast rule in strength training, it generally can be quite good and lots of beginners programmes are based around it but as you increase in strength of course you're going to vary it. I can't work out anywhere near with max weight on the bench with 5x5 for example. So for the bench I'd typically have a gradual session something like: 3x12 on a light weight like 60, series of pushups, 5x5 and then a final 1x3 at my max strength.

Likewise you can't deadlift 5x5 with anything like maximum efficiency for strength. Certain lifts like lat pull downs benefit from lighter loads and way more reps, etc.
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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Mitlov » 02 Apr 2012 19:52

Motley wrote:I am in complete agreement that supplemental strength training is of benefit to HEMA, as is training with heavier weapons, and correct weight weapons.

I am not sure about the military press exercises == bad though even with what Steven said. Seeing as I don't have the background to argue the point I will just add this flip side to the coin and leave it at that http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/67 ... ifting.pdf


My wife is part of a crossfit gym; I am not. Crossfit emphasizes a TON of overhead lifting, so they're definitely going to find articles that say that's safe. But Crossfit itself is as controversial as overhead lifting is. Their emphasis of working the same muscle group in multiple ways on the same day or successive days, and doing circuits of various training to the point of failure instead of giving yourself time to recover, is controversial with a lot of fitness-related people. From a survey of people over at fitocracy.com's forums, it seems to me about 2/3s loathe Crossfit, 1/3 adore it, and nobody is in between.

I think it's safe to say that there's no medical consensus on shoulder press either way. Personally, after doing some reading, I think I'm going to substitute upright rows due to a "better safe than sorry" approach.
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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Motley » 02 Apr 2012 20:05

Mitlov wrote:
Motley wrote:I am in complete agreement that supplemental strength training is of benefit to HEMA, as is training with heavier weapons, and correct weight weapons.

I am not sure about the military press exercises == bad though even with what Steven said. Seeing as I don't have the background to argue the point I will just add this flip side to the coin and leave it at that http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/67 ... ifting.pdf


My wife is part of a crossfit gym; I am not. Crossfit emphasizes a TON of overhead lifting, so they're definitely going to find articles that say that's safe. But Crossfit itself is as controversial as overhead lifting is. Their emphasis of working the same muscle group in multiple ways on the same day or successive days, and doing circuits of various training to the point of failure instead of giving yourself time to recover, is controversial with a lot of fitness-related people. From a survey of people over at fitocracy.com's forums, it seems to me about 2/3s loathe Crossfit, 1/3 adore it, and nobody is in between.

I think it's safe to say that there's no medical consensus on shoulder press either way. Personally, after doing some reading, I think I'm going to substitute upright rows due to a "better safe than sorry" approach.


oh yeah Crossfit is not what it used to be, it kind of went insane a few years ago and moved away from the approach that made it so exciting to start with. I used to do it a while ago, then my gym moved into a more strength based approach then (unfortunatly) I moved to a more sitting on the couch approach... I am starting to get back into regular training as it is of enormous benefit and started to notice what I was missing.

That article is from just before that time iirc, if you look up who actually wrote the bulk of that article (Mark Rippetoe, http://startingstrength.com/) it is looking at it from a strength point of view not the bottom of pukies bucket :-)
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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Mitlov » 02 Apr 2012 20:35

The 2/3s of people at fitocracy.com who don't like Crossfit all tend to be gaga for Starting Strength and Stronglifts 5x5. I'm doing Stronglifts, but I know a lot of people doing Starting Strength who love it.
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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Motley » 02 Apr 2012 20:41

:-) lol

I was just trying to point out that it was more general than crossfit even though it was a crossfit article, I kind of gathered if you knew what stronglifts was you would know starting strength. For myself I am slowly following the starting strength approach.

What is fitocracy.com like? worth signing up for?
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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Mitlov » 02 Apr 2012 20:46

Motley wrote:What is fitocracy.com like? worth signing up for?


Fitocracy.com is a free workout-tracking website that borrows methodologies from social media like Facebook and massively multiplayer online roleplaying games like World of Warcraft. Laugh all you want, but it works and it's one hell of a good fitness motivator. You input your daily workout, and it runs it through a complicated algorithm and gives you a certain number of experience points as a result. There are quests and achievements to unlock (running a certain distance, lifting a certain percentage of your bodyweight with a certain lift, doing a certain combination of lifts during a single workout, etc), and you can "follow" other people you know, and other people you've met there, so you can see what they're doing and vice versa. You can "give props" for their workouts, much like "liking" a post on facebook.

There's also a discussion forum with some very knowledgeable people. Powerlifting and distance running are both encouraged as two of the best things you can be doing for fitness, both by the experience points algorithm and by the posters on the forum.

There are both Olympic fencers and HEMA folks over there, by the way, and you can join those groups to see what workouts other people with similar interests are doing, give them props, etc.

If anyone here wants to sign up there, my username is "Mitlov" over there as well. Follow me and I'll do the same for you.
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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Jose_Pereira » 03 Apr 2012 10:27

This thread i getting more and more interesting. Nice to hear all the opinions around here.

Regarding overhead lifts, I have a bad personal experience with them. I have a labrum tear which leads to some shoulder instability, caused by heavy gym overhead lifts and longsword and rapier use. Those lifts caused strain on the labrum, and the fencing practice that followed the gym busted the rest of it.
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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby admin » 03 Apr 2012 10:57

A queston - if you are doing 5x5, how long do you rest between each set? I ask because I've found that makes a fair difference to the weight I would use. The longer the rest, the heavier the weight possible.
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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Lyceum » 03 Apr 2012 11:17

admin wrote:A queston - if you are doing 5x5, how long do you rest between each set? I ask because I've found that makes a fair difference to the weight I would use. The longer the rest, the heavier the weight possible.


http://stronglifts.com/ Has all the info you need for 5x5, at least it did. Rests also depend what your overall training goal is and the particular lift. As you begin to work with heavier weights (1.5x your body plus) you're going to need to rest longer.

For example I'm likely to take longer with deadlifts but likely to blast out flies as much as I can.

EDIT: LOL "5 months ago SL changed from a free to a paid community" f*ck that guy, seriously. Though some of the basic stuff like the programme essentials still seems accessible.
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Andreas Engström » 03 Apr 2012 12:12

What is the opinion on kettlebell "clean and press", since we are talking overhead lifts? Equally bad for the shoulder?

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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Cutlery Penguin » 03 Apr 2012 13:19

Mitlov wrote:Fitocracy.com is a free workout-tracking website that borrows methodologies from social media like Facebook and massively multiplayer online roleplaying games like World of Warcraft. Laugh all you want, but it works and it's one hell of a good fitness motivator. You input your daily workout, and it runs it through a complicated algorithm and gives you a certain number of experience points as a result. There are quests and achievements to unlock (running a certain distance, lifting a certain percentage of your bodyweight with a certain lift, doing a certain combination of lifts during a single workout, etc), and you can "follow" other people you know, and other people you've met there, so you can see what they're doing and vice versa. You can "give props" for their workouts, much like "liking" a post on facebook.

There's also a discussion forum with some very knowledgeable people. Powerlifting and distance running are both encouraged as two of the best things you can be doing for fitness, both by the experience points algorithm and by the posters on the forum.

There are both Olympic fencers and HEMA folks over there, by the way, and you can join those groups to see what workouts other people with similar interests are doing, give them props, etc.

If anyone here wants to sign up there, my username is "Mitlov" over there as well. Follow me and I'll do the same for you.


That is a f*cking awesome idea for a site. I'm off for a look now!
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Steven H » 03 Apr 2012 13:25

Andreas Engström wrote:What is the opinion on kettlebell "clean and press", since we are talking overhead lifts? Equally bad for the shoulder?

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Of course. Why wouldn't it be?
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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Steven H » 03 Apr 2012 13:29

admin wrote:A queston - if you are doing 5x5, how long do you rest between each set? I ask because I've found that makes a fair difference to the weight I would use. The longer the rest, the heavier the weight possible.

2-5 minutes, per Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning. With this kind of rest period it makes sense to do super sets, where you alternate exercises. Basically, during the rest period for one exercise you do another exercise that uses different muscles.

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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Steven H » 03 Apr 2012 13:32

"Another common mistake is lifting weights higher than shoulder level or bringing weights behind the the plane of the body." P. 188 Complete Conditioning for Tennis, E. Paul Roetert & Todd S. Ellenbecker.
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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby admin » 03 Apr 2012 14:43

Steven H wrote: 2-5 minutes, per Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning. With this kind of rest period it makes sense to do super sets, where you alternate exercises. Basically, during the rest period for one exercise you do another exercise that uses different muscles.


Thanks - I used to alternate like that, but I wondered if there was an optimum rest time with the 5x5.
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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Lyceum » 03 Apr 2012 16:27

Steven H wrote:
admin wrote:A queston - if you are doing 5x5, how long do you rest between each set? I ask because I've found that makes a fair difference to the weight I would use. The longer the rest, the heavier the weight possible.

2-5 minutes, per Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning. With this kind of rest period it makes sense to do super sets, where you alternate exercises. Basically, during the rest period for one exercise you do another exercise that uses different muscles.

Cheers,
Steven


Checked out your blog, some interesting stuff there. What do you feel about complexes?
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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Mitlov » 04 Apr 2012 06:39

Royally effed up my wrists doing upright rows yesterday. Yeowch. My left wrist (I'm a leftie) is still very painful, particularly in a line running back from the base of the thumb. I think I'll stick to the shoulder press, which has never felt anything but good when I do it.
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Re: How much strength training does HEMA need?

Postby Steven H » 04 Apr 2012 15:34

Lyceum wrote:Checked out your blog, some interesting stuff there. What do you feel about complexes?


For those who don't know: complex training involves mixing another training mode in with weight training. This is done during the rest periods between sets of lifts. The most common form uses plyometrics that are biomechanically related. Such as doing squats and box jumps. There is a good summary here. Other forms exist as well.

I'm aware of only a small body of research on complex training. What I've seen is that the benefits are small. That means that the advantages are most useful to people already at the top of their game. If you're coming in second in races then complexes may push you to first. If you're coming in tenth, you have fundamentals to work on more importantly.

The other reason that they are most appropriate for high-end athletes is that they significantly increase the stress on the body. The total volume of work done in a workout roughly doubles. For someone whose already developed a tolerance for lot's of exercise it's fine. For an amateur athlete it's probably too much and increases the risk of overtraining or even injury.

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