HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Anders Linnard » 28 Mar 2012 14:59

Gav wrote:
admin wrote:This is Olympic sabre fencing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Et6xWqC1A8

Just so the historical fencers know the kind of thing they are missing. :wink:


And we're missing HEMA sabre. ;)

http://youtu.be/cB-gm9RYVmE


The comment on the clip is from the fencer in white shirt and it reads:
"Well, that didn't look particularly good. We clearly need more training, or what do you think Hugo? But it's a lot of fun... :)"

Its from 2007 when these guys formed a study group to start looking at the Swedish military system of the 19th century.

/A
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Bulot » 28 Mar 2012 15:05

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Et6xWqC1A8

Just so the historical fencers know the kind of thing they are missing.


The comments discussing the possible lethality of the strikes are hilarious (well... it's classic youtube trolling)
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Gav » 28 Mar 2012 15:13

Anders Linnard wrote:
Gav wrote:
admin wrote:This is Olympic sabre fencing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Et6xWqC1A8

Just so the historical fencers know the kind of thing they are missing. :wink:


And we're missing HEMA sabre. ;)

http://youtu.be/cB-gm9RYVmE


The comment on the clip is from the fencer in white shirt and it reads:
"Well, that didn't look particularly good. We clearly need more training, or what do you think Hugo? But it's a lot of fun... :)"

Its from 2007 when these guys formed a study group to start looking at the Swedish military system of the 19th century.

/A


Ok. How about I give another example?

Is this what I am missing?

http://youtu.be/XMhnmFo9v_Y

Those are the finalists in a 2009 tournament.

Also I fail to see what "19th century sabre" has to do with anything?
Footwork is footwork.
Core skills are core skills.
I am genuinely curious. What am I missing?
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Gav » 28 Mar 2012 15:16

Anders Linnard wrote:
Gav wrote:
admin wrote:This is Olympic sabre fencing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Et6xWqC1A8

Just so the historical fencers know the kind of thing they are missing. :wink:


And we're missing HEMA sabre. ;)

http://youtu.be/cB-gm9RYVmE


The comment on the clip is from the fencer in white shirt and it reads:
"Well, that didn't look particularly good. We clearly need more training, or what do you think Hugo? But it's a lot of fun... :)"

Its from 2007 when these guys formed a study group to start looking at the Swedish military system of the 19th century.

/A


Is this clip the same two guys from two years later?

http://youtu.be/cFh47zeEqOE
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Anders Linnard » 28 Mar 2012 15:18

Gav wrote:
Anders Linnard wrote:
Gav wrote:
admin wrote:This is Olympic sabre fencing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Et6xWqC1A8

Just so the historical fencers know the kind of thing they are missing. :wink:


And we're missing HEMA sabre. ;)

http://youtu.be/cB-gm9RYVmE


The comment on the clip is from the fencer in white shirt and it reads:
"Well, that didn't look particularly good. We clearly need more training, or what do you think Hugo? But it's a lot of fun... :)"

Its from 2007 when these guys formed a study group to start looking at the Swedish military system of the 19th century.

/A


Ok. How about I give another example?

Is this what I am missing?

http://youtu.be/XMhnmFo9v_Y

Those are the finalists in a 2009 tournament.

Also I fail to see what "19th century sabre" has to do with anything?
Footwork is footwork.
Core skills are core skills.
I am genuinely curious. What am I missing?


Erm, I couldn't be bothered to read the thread, so I don't know what you are missing. I just thought it would be appropriate to point out that the video showed two people sparring that were well aware of their short comings, just beginning to do sabre.

I have nothing against sport fencing. It's stylish.

/Anders
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Gav » 28 Mar 2012 15:23

Anders Linnard wrote:Erm, I couldn't be bothered to read the thread, so I don't know what you are missing. I just thought it would be appropriate to point out that the video showed two people sparring that were well aware of their short comings, just beginning to do sabre.

I have nothing against sport fencing. It's stylish.

/Anders


Fair enough.

I quite like some of the HEMA stuff I see. To me it looks like a lot of fun!
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Andreas Engström » 28 Mar 2012 15:59

Gav wrote:
Anders Linnard wrote:
Gav wrote:
admin wrote:This is Olympic sabre fencing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Et6xWqC1A8

Just so the historical fencers know the kind of thing they are missing. :wink:


And we're missing HEMA sabre. ;)

http://youtu.be/cB-gm9RYVmE


The comment on the clip is from the fencer in white shirt and it reads:
"Well, that didn't look particularly good. We clearly need more training, or what do you think Hugo? But it's a lot of fun... :)"

Its from 2007 when these guys formed a study group to start looking at the Swedish military system of the 19th century.

/A


Ok. How about I give another example?

Is this what I am missing?

http://youtu.be/XMhnmFo9v_Y

Those are the finalists in a 2009 tournament.

Also I fail to see what "19th century sabre" has to do with anything?
Footwork is footwork.
Core skills are core skills.
I am genuinely curious. What am I missing?

They were the finalists in the first sabre tournament ever held at a HEMA event. It was a very small tournament (I think only eight participants), and it was held with the extremely clunky shinai simulators we still sometimes used back then, for safety reasons. Nowadays we only use steel.

I don't know what you're missing. Who said that you're missing anything?

19th century military sabre is in some respects very different from sports sabre. And in some respects it's similar. Of course. What is it you don't understand about this?

Footwork is footwork, but footwork with a two to three times heavier and differently balanced weapon, wielded in a manner so as to be able to actually deal damage through layers of thick cloth, and footwork meant to be useful outside on uneven ground with slippery grass, isn't necessarily the same footwork that is appropriate for a much lighter weapon, used for light touches for sport on a nice piste. Some of the footwork described in the military manuals we use would probably make you go "Huh?"

Core skills are core skills, but again, some additional skills are needed in one case, some others in the other.

What are you getting at?

Oh, and if you wish to make fun of or critique videos, perhaps it would be courteous to pick the latest videos, not the absolutely oldest tripe you could find.. just sayin'.

These are more recent, feel free to comment. They are unedited, meant for internal use (as a training aid), and in no way anything like "best of" anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNyAJKkpK3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGewe8Ehr0U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QavmzXEEDrY

By the way, I also have nothing at all against sport fencing.

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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby snowcelt » 28 Mar 2012 16:22

I figured out what modern Olympic fencing has that HEMA doesn't. Built in LED lights in our masks! :shock:

Screw painting things on them, clearly flashing LEDs are the way forward!
:twisted:
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Phil C » 28 Mar 2012 16:49

Andreas Engström wrote:They were the finalists in the first sabre tournament ever held at a HEMA event.

Point of Informnation: There have been sabre tournaments at HEMA events for at least a decade before that. I have picures of the one the DDS ran in 1997 for a start and were a regular feature of their annual gatherings for many years.

That's even if one doesn't include the more "classical" sabre tournaments run by the AHF in the US which have gone on for even longer.
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby swahili » 28 Mar 2012 16:50

This may be of interest to people (I mentioned it to Gordon at the weekend) - Prof Leon Bertrand demonstrating the difference between sabre in 1906 and "modern" style in 1926

http://youtu.be/loluky6-8Jk

And to bring it up-to-date, the final of the men's sabre World Cup Warsaw 2011

http://youtu.be/UKUEZIrDVT8
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HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Andreas Engström » 28 Mar 2012 16:51

Phil C wrote:
Andreas Engström wrote:They were the finalists in the first sabre tournament ever held at a HEMA event.

Point of Informnation: There have been sabre tournaments at HEMA events for at least a decade before that. I have picures of the one the DDS ran in 1997 for a start and were a regular feature of their annual gatherings for many years.

That's even if one doesn't include the more "classical" sabre tournaments run by the AHF in the US which have gone on for even longer.

Sorry, my mistype: I meant to write "our" event (meaning Swordfish), not "a" event.
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby The Salmon Lord » 28 Mar 2012 17:06

Phil C wrote:
Andreas Engström wrote:They were the finalists in the first sabre tournament ever held at a HEMA event.

Point of Informnation: There have been sabre tournaments at HEMA events for at least a decade before that. I have picures of the one the DDS ran in 1997 for a start and were a regular feature of their annual gatherings for many years.

That's even if one doesn't include the more "classical" sabre tournaments run by the AHF in the US which have gone on for even longer.



Phil got there before me. Yes most certainly there have been military sabre competitions held in Scotland for at least 10 years. We just dont put them on onesTube.
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Gav » 28 Mar 2012 17:38

Andreas Engström wrote:They were the finalists in the first sabre tournament ever held at a HEMA event. It was a very small tournament (I think only eight participants), and it was held with the extremely clunky shinai simulators we still sometimes used back then, for safety reasons. Nowadays we only use steel.


For safety reasons?

19th century military sabre is in some respects very different from sports sabre. And in some respects it's similar. Of course. What is it you don't understand about this?


Only the weight. That doesn't excuse poor technique. Classic case of overthinking things. Also it's difficult to learn footwork from a book. It's an organic living thing - learn it properly. Also, a good grounding in basic bladework is going to carry you far. I'm not suggesting that you use olympic sabre, what I am suggesting is you take what you can from it. Fencers are there to help - use them. It is true, you will struggle to find good sabre in Sweden because the federation only really supports Epee (to good effect) but I am sure I can find some people to help you out. You're not alone.

Footwork is footwork, but footwork with a two to three times heavier and differently balanced weapon, wielded in a manner so as to be able to actually deal damage through layers of thick cloth, and footwork meant to be useful outside on uneven ground with slippery grass, isn't necessarily the same footwork that is appropriate for a much lighter weapon, used for light touches for sport on a nice piste. Some of the footwork described in the military manuals we use would probably make you go "Huh?"


Wrong. Footwork is just footwork.

What is the point of footwork? The point of footwork is to keep you poised and ready. You should be comfortable and able to easily move where you want (catlike is the synonym). Not everyone manages this sort of movement - even modern fencers - but it is something you need to strive for.

I'd be happy to pop round to your club to give you hand but the commute is too long!

Core skills are core skills, but again, some additional skills are needed in one case, some others in the other.


Attacks, parry, riposting, lunging and so on should be able to be done as effortlessly as possible. I am not seeing that. That will come with time but it's an area I would aim to improve.

Oh, and if you wish to make fun of or critique videos, perhaps it would be courteous to pick the latest videos, not the absolutely oldest tripe you could find.. just sayin'.
[/quote]

2-3 years old is the absolutely oldest tripe? Really?

In any case I am just reacting to implications of some else's post - don't take it personally.
These are more recent, feel free to comment. They are unedited, meant for internal use (as a training aid), and in no way anything like "best of" anything.


That's understood. You should see me train on new things ... dreadful to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNyAJKkpK3 - sorry this one doesn't work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGewe8Ehr0U - Footwork is still not good. You make several classic errors. Choice of tactics isn't great and blade actions are clunky. Why are you bothering to flourish your blade like that prior to the cut? It might just be the angle of the camera but you look like you are telegraphing your attacks. It also wastes energy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QavmzXEEDrY - again several problems with footwork. Fencer on the left looks like he's off balance several times.

If you're interested in better detail I can supply it but not tonight - I have things to do. Let me know.

Where in Sweden are you? I know some guys over there who can help you guys with your footwork and gain a better understanding of distance and timing.

My advice would be to work your core. You probably need to improve the quality of your muscle mass in your upper torso (but I am pretty certain you are going to get bigger because of those rather cool - I'm serious - sabres).

I remember wielding non-fencing sabres. I still have the scar on my right hand (I'm left handed) when I missed an action...

Just so that you are aware. I am familiar with "proper sabre".
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Gav » 28 Mar 2012 17:41

snowcelt wrote:I figured out what modern Olympic fencing has that HEMA doesn't. Built in LED lights in our masks! :shock:

Screw painting things on them, clearly flashing LEDs are the way forward!
:twisted:


Heh.

We agree.

I call the sabreurs "daleks".

Sometimes "Flash Gordon".
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Steve Reich » 28 Mar 2012 17:45

Gav wrote:What is the point of footwork? The point of footwork is to keep you poised and ready. You should be comfortable and able to easily move where you want (catlike is the synonym). Not everyone manages this sort of movement - even modern fencers - but it is something you need to strive for.

Ummm...well, that is *one* point of footwork. Others include powering your attacks and (sometimes) powering your defense...
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby The Salmon Lord » 28 Mar 2012 17:50

Gav wrote:
Andreas Engström wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGewe8Ehr0U - Footwork is still not good. You make several classic errors. Choice of tactics isn't great and blade actions are clunky. Why are you bothering to flourish your blade like that prior to the cut? It might just be the angle of the camera but you look like you are telegraphing your attacks. .


Its called the moulinet its the basis of most C19th sabre. Because you cant kill or maim with a military sword by flicking the point around. The aim was to cut through a jacket, skin, muscle and then bone. The classic example to me of the difference between your sport and my martial art is this idea. The attacks primary purpose is not simply to strike the opponent quickly but to do so in a manner that would kill or maim.
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Ulrich von L...n » 28 Mar 2012 17:52

swahili wrote:Prof Leon Bertrand demonstrating the difference between sabre in 1906 and "modern" style in 1926 ...

Thank you very much for this video! The first part is especially fascinating to me. Old equipment etc.

P.S. 1926 + a few decades: Heyday of Hungarian sabre fencing, starting from 1908 London Olympic Games ... and in 2012 the national sabre team cannot even manage to qualify. Sic transit gloria mundi ...
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby admin » 28 Mar 2012 17:56

Gav,
Are you aware of the use of moulinettes in 19thC sabre? How much could sport fencing help with passing footwork? Are you aware that a heavier weapon requires both different body mechanics and different footwork and stance? Are you aware of the different engaging guards used by different schools of military sabre and the different versions of Tierce, for example?
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby admin » 28 Mar 2012 18:00

The Salmon Lord wrote:Its called the moulinet its the basis of most C19th sabre. Because you cant kill or maim with a military sword by flicking the point around. The aim was to cut through a jacket, skin, muscle and then bone. The classic example to me of the difference between your sport and my martial art is this idea. The attacks primary purpose is not simply to strike the opponent quickly but to do so in a manner that would kill or maim.


Well said.

This is one very clear example of why it is very annoying to be lectured at by sport fencers who claim to know the 'One True Way', whilst not recognising the purpose of something as basic as a moulinette! :shock:
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Re: HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

Postby Gav » 28 Mar 2012 18:01

admin wrote:Gav,
Are you aware of the use of moulinettes in 19thC sabre? How much could sport fencing help with passing footwork? Are you aware that a heavier weapon requires both different body mechanics and different footwork and stance? ?


The pass is old fashioned. We both know that.

Moulinets are still done. I'll see if I can find a vid for you - it's just not common. They are also not done like that. Even if I am missing the detail - don't do it all the time.
There's a hanging parry that is sometimes used in foil against egregious flicks which can result in some weird sabre-like actions that look like looping attacks too. I'm not calling that a moulinets though.

Just because it's in an old book doesn't mean you have to do it. Next you'll be telling me you use leeches because it was popular back then.

Are you aware of the different engaging guards used by different schools of military sabre and the different versions of Tierce, for example


Yes.


-----

I find it strange that all I see are the similarities and all you guys are interested in are the differences.
Last edited by Gav on 28 Mar 2012 18:08, edited 2 times in total.
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