HEMA vs Modern Fencing.

[Chris Holzman]

... video of Dr. Posta on youtube - and while the sabres used are typical modern fencing sabres, the method of use is dramatically more realistic in the delivery of cuts, and so on - clearly very clean Italo-Hungarian sabre of the time.

Dr. Posta and his coach Dr. Gerentser (from a movie newsreel, 1924):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giJ0UW9OQoc
Starting from 1:17 sabre fencing.

IMO the visual impression of the whole fencing might have been influenced by the static nature of the filming apparatus. We - my girlfriend and I - definitely fence in a more static way, with a lot of parry - ripost etc. play when we don't have a cameraman.

That is the video I was thinking of. Mostly my comments were to the fact that they're delivering cuts in a reasonable manner, solid parries - of course, this seems to be a lesson or warm up drill as much as anything, so I'd expect that even if the bouting isn't as clean. Regardless, these guys clearly know what to do with the sharp side and pointy end, and don't exhibit a the sort of reckless disregard for their own safety, or modifications to techniques that would by nature make them ineffective.

Good looking stuff. If more fencing looked like this, more people might see the martial value of it.

[Ulrich von L...n]

... which swords are you referring to by those model numbers? Italian, Austrian-Hungarian?

They are all Austro-Hungarian.

[Chris Holzman]

... which swords are you referring to by those model numbers? Italian, Austrian-Hungarian?

They are all Austro-Hungarian.

Thanks, for the clarification, and yes, those are pretty good sized (and rather nice) sabres, especially for their time period, and I think much nicer by comparison than 'sabres' like the British P1908 and US M1913.

[Gordon L]

to point out that the flick-hit was deliberately targetted by changes in the rules designed to attempt to control its use, and eliminate it, if possible

I don't want to seem to be having a go at you Gordon, but I just wanted to offer a counter-view. The flick, from what I can see, is very much alive. It may have diminished slightly, but there are plenty of fencers out there who consider it an essential skill:
How to do it
Blades specifically for it
Current thread on best blades for flicking, with not a dissenting comment

Rest assured, I don't feel got at. In fact, I think the posts are complementary.

One is about rule-makers attempts to eliminate the flick, one is about competitors attempting to get around the spirit of the law, and stick to its letter.

And yes, to become a full Professor, I shall have to be able to teach it to competition-minded fencers.

I won't like it.

But then, about a hundred years ago masters of the thrusting swords were dismayed at having to teach the fleche. Few still cavill at that (Hi Phil!).

Personally, I think that there have always been running attacks, especially on battlefields, so it's no real biggie.

And alternative of flicks is that, if duelling was to first blood, and the blades were whippy (and dwelling blades were, much whippier than current blades typically are) then the flick that drew blood would have been valid.

Or it would have been deemed ungentlemanly, so that there would have been no way to defend your honour using it.

But again, that requires a slow process of emergence, disapproval, and consequent changing of the rules to attempt to eliminate the behaviour.

Duelling and competition are both artifacts of culture as much as fundamental practicality.

And even war has rules and conventions.

(My favourite example of this is the first attempt at a Mongol invasion of Japan).

[Gordon L]

The example I was preparing to use was commanding. I know that Gordon knows that it can be effective, I have seen him have a sword taken out of his hand in freeplay (I even have access to the video)

It's true. It's a bit unfortunate that the video stops quite when it does - I then negotiated a continuation of the bout - "I know you've got all the swords, but let's just keep going". So, by this time unarmed against a foe with a case of smallswords, successfully performed a seizure when... well, let's just say that I won that battle, but lost the war.

Disarms and seizures are always popular in my kids classes.

[Gordon L]

... video of Dr. Posta on youtube - and while the sabres used are typical modern fencing sabres, the method of use is dramatically more realistic in the delivery of cuts, and so on - clearly very clean Italo-Hungarian sabre of the time.

Dr. Posta and his coach Dr. Gerentser (from a movie newsreel, 1924):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giJ0UW9OQoc
Starting from 1:17 sabre fencing.

That is the video I was thinking of. Mostly my comments were to the fact that they're delivering cuts in a reasonable manner, solid parries - of course, this seems to be a lesson or warm up drill as much as anything, so I'd expect that even if the bouting isn't as clean. Regardless, these guys clearly know what to do with the sharp side and pointy end, and don't exhibit a the sort of reckless disregard for their own safety, or modifications to techniques that would by nature make them ineffective.

Good looking stuff. If more fencing looked like this, more people might see the martial value of it.

My sabre teacher when I lived in London was a Hungarian only about 10 to 20 years younger than them, by my estimation. He was one of several who came West in WW2.

[Ulrich von L...n]

...they're delivering cuts in a reasonable manner, solid parries ... Regardless, these guys clearly know what to do with the sharp side and pointy end, and don't exhibit a the sort of reckless disregard for their own safety... If more fencing looked like this, more people might see the martial value of it.

Yes, absolutely.
Reasonable cuts, solid parries and generally a martially sound approach. It would be good to be able to revive that approach to sabre fencing.

[Ulrich von L...n]

Austro-Hungarian sabres, M1904:

1904_private.jpg (84.75 KiB) Viewed 482 times

1904_NCO.jpg (70.96 KiB) Viewed 482 times

1904_officer.jpg (62.23 KiB) Viewed 482 times

Pictures are from this site:
http://szurony.com/modules/myalbum/view ... m=10&cid=3
(14 pages of photos dedicated to the period between 1867-1918)

[Ulrich von L...n]

A nice thing about Gerentser's book (published in 1944) is that in a 350-page book 57 pages are devoted to the history of fencing, 14 pages dedicated on how to cram different level fencers or complete novices for sabre duels. I think this is the last Hungarian fencing book that deals with sword duels. So to me it has a nice touch of HEMA. You could almost see the moment when the last shreds of direct HEMA heritage (battlefield applications, civilian self-defence, judicial duels, honour duels) disappeared from our fencing manuals.

[Thearos]

I wonder how many manuals have this section on "how to cram for a real duel" (G. Dubois, "Comment se défendre" (1914), in the manuals section on this site, has a chapter "Le Duel en 24 Heures"-- itself quoted in extenso from an earlier manual, L'escrime du duel, une technique)

[Phil C]

Bazancourt has a cramming section in his "Secrets of the Sword".

Andre remarks in his "Art of Self Defence" that duelling is a near dead activity only common among certain secretive fraternities, stating they use "a particular type of handweapon" for the task whcih he doesn't define further but I suspect it is the epee de combat.

[Dave B]

Bazancourt has a cramming section in his "Secrets of the Sword".

Andre remarks in his "Art of Self Defence" that duelling is a near dead activity only common among certain secretive fraternities, stating they use "a particular type of handweapon" for the task whcih he doesn't define further but I suspect it is the epee de combat.

Unless he's talking about the mensur and the schlager? although it was open in germany I thought it was extant but 'underground' in some other european countries.

[admin]

And alternative of flicks is that, if duelling was to first blood, and the blades were whippy (and dwelling blades were, much whippier than current blades typically are) then the flick that drew blood would have been valid.

I'm confused by this comment, Gordon, as all of the epee de combat that I have seen had very stiff and thick blades more akin to 'double-wide' modern epee blades, and of course smallswords are very stiff - that was the whole purpose of having a triangular-section blade. Or do you mean duelling sabres? If so, then I don't really agree there either - original duelling sabres are generally far stiffer than modern sport sabres.

[Chris Holzman]

I wonder how many manuals have this section on "how to cram for a real duel" (G. Dubois, "Comment se défendre" (1914), in the manuals section on this site, has a chapter "Le Duel en 24 Heures"-- itself quoted in extenso from an earlier manual, L'escrime du duel, une technique)

I can't think of a single Italian fencing book in the mid to late 19th century or early 20th century that has a 'how to cram for a duel' type of section. Obviously, Parise's 1904 "Scherma da Terreno" is a book devoted to fencing training/bouting/competition outdoors, as is preparing for a duel, and in his 1884 book, he makes a comment or two about how the maestro has the duty to now and then take the students outside, and have them fence with smarra (heavier practice swords) with only a mask for protection. Parise spends most of the introductory materials in the 1904 book discussing how even French commentators have noted that Italian foil fencing of the time was essentially preparation for the duel, rather than the academic foil play of the French school that necessitated the development of the epee.

Otherwise, Maestro Rossi has a chapter on the duel in his 1885 book, but it is really a miniature dueling code, not a 'how to' section.

Of course, I haven't read *all* the books, but I've read most of those by the major authors.

[Chris Holzman]

A nice thing about Gerentser's book (published in 1944) is that in a 350-page book 57 pages are devoted to the history of fencing, 14 pages dedicated on how to cram different level fencers or complete novices for sabre duels. I think this is the last Hungarian fencing book that deals with sword duels. So to me it has a nice touch of HEMA. You could almost see the moment when the last shreds of direct HEMA heritage (battlefield applications, civilian self-defence, judicial duels, honour duels) disappeared from our fencing manuals.

What language is Gerentser's book in? Hungarian?

[Ulrich von L...n]

My sabre teacher when I lived in London was a Hungarian only about 10 to 20 years younger than them, by my estimation. He was one of several who came West in WW2.

Hi Gordon,
It would be interesting to know his name.

[Ulrich von L...n]

What language is Gerentser's book in? Hungarian?

Hungarian. Good for us, Hungarians, but at the same time it is a sad thing that Gerentser's book isn't accessible for English reading fencers. Fortunately you have English translation of Beke & Polgar's book.

BTW the duelling section of Gerentser's bokk does not contain any duelling rules, it is purely "how to cram for a real duel" stuff. He referred his readers to several Hungarian duelling codes, wildly popular in Hungary during the first decades of 20th C.

I have put the task of translating the cramming part on my to-do-list.

[Chris Holzman]

What language is Gerentser's book in? Hungarian?

Hungarian. Good for us, Hungarians, but at the same time it is a sad thing that Gerentser's book isn't accessible for English reading fencers. Fortunately you have English translation of Beke & Polgar's book.

BTW the duelling section of Gerentser's bokk does not contain any duelling rules, it is purely "how to cram for a real duel" stuff. He referred his readers to several Hungarian duelling codes, wildly popular in Hungary during the first decades of 20th C.

I have put the task of translating the cramming part on my to-do-list.

Beke and Polgar's "Methodology of Sabre Fencing" is a fantastic book. I've gotten it via Inter-library loan in the past. Sadly, copies of it are nearly impossible to find for sale, and have repeatedly eclipsed $400.00 US on e-bay. I think it really shows a turning point in Italo-Hungarian sabre fencing (at least in the written record available in English) where you are presented with Italian sabre that has been stripped of the molinelli as exercises and attacks, but retains them as ripostes. It also presents a complete system of fencing, unlike a lot of later books available in English, but clearly tunes the material for sport application. Despite that, it doesn't suffer from the sporting-reductionism that many instructors fall prey to today.

[Gav]

I happen to believe that epee as it was taught and practiced in c.1900 was very 'realistic', because as I said above they still had the mentality that this was a system that at least in theory you could use in a real duel. Classical Fencing retains that, as I understand it. Today in sport epee that is no longer the case - thrusting someone in the toe 0.3 of a second before they thrust you in the face is not what epee fencers in c.1900 were aiming towards, I think.

How do I put this? You're basically wrong. I can see why you might think that assumption is valid - it's romantic notion. I realise you may not accept my assertion.

Watch Pathe news clips from around that period.

I can see a metric ton of similarities between the high level fencing seen then and what a modern epeeist does now.

Epee changed 30-40 years ago when certain practitioners realised that in addition to good "classical" technique you could add an additional highly physical, sports science based, athletic component. If you want to read an account of the person who is credited with introducing this idea read Epee 2.0 by Johann Harmenberg. His account is also laced with his observations of the corruption and snobbery he faced in the sport at the time. It's a recommended read.

Underneath it is recognisably the same game. You may not be able to see that but it is actually true.

Good epeeists build their skillset on good technique. You can't have technique without practise. That practise is based on the 600 odd years of history of the sport.

[admin]

So, to be clear, are you arguing that thrusting someone in the toe 0.3 of a second before they thrust you through the face is 'realistic' or 'martial', or are you arguing that in 1900 fencers taking part in first-blood duels would have done that anyway?