Sports fencing federations and HEMA

[swahili]

I think there are a lot of odd assumptions going on here.

I agree, it's just that the assumptions I find odd might not be the ones you do.

As we expand, we're all moving in different directions, and some of those directions are towards becoming a sport. We've had live streaming of a tournament already (which worries me far more than the USFCA issuing coaching certificates).

I wonder why?

Because a televised tournament seems much more like a sporting event. It conjures up thoughts in my mind of people playing to the rules in order to win, just like in sports fencing but with different rules to be got around, and different people in charge. That doesn't mean it is that, or that everyone who competes in tournaments thinks that. But you asked why I thought that, so you get my opinion.

We have attempts to present HEMA as a modern, professional, well-run activity (which implies in my mind standardised regulations and teaching certificates).

Why would it imply that to you?

Because to me, in the UK today, "modern, professional, well-run activity" means complying with insurance requirements, health and safety expectations, CBR checks, European regulations that should only really apply to professional athletes etc.

I'm not saying my concerns are any more valid/realistic than other people's concerns about closer relations with sports fencing, I'm just pointing out that nearly every advance in HEMA can be viewed by someone as being a cause for concern. We're not all doing the same HEMA, and what might be a good idea for some of us will fill others with dread.

Who are these fencers who have already ditched the "dusty old manuscripts" and are just concentrating on derivative fencing systems?

Obviously not the people you fence with, which is good. But I see this in some of the people I fence with, and that influences what I think, because it influences the clubs I fence at. If it's not a problem for you, then feel free to ignore it. But there seem to be enough people on this forum that do see this as a problem.

[John H]

When I was asked to lead the sabre study group, or actually asked to teach the sabre class, I downgraded it to study group as I do not feel I am qualified to call myself an instructor or coach. I have Maestro Sullins three hours away and he has that right by deed and study. My former Karate instructor has attained Hanshi (8th Dan.) Can I stand next to these people and call myself an instructor, hell no? So I looked around to see where I could get something to help me learn to teach aside from just doing it. In HEMA we have nothing. The closest I found to this was Military Maters of Arms programs, which may not be in the preferred weapons but they offer something. HEMA offers me nothing, did I mention that yet?

I have read too many threads arguing if HEMA should even offer ‘credentials’ and no real headway made to offer any training in coaching or teaching. Someone has now stood up and started offering something, where the traditional groups offer nothing. I would seek this out if in my area because it is all there is. If HEMA doesn’t want someone else coming in and giving credentials, give me an alternative. If not only one person has stood up in the room and everyone is telling them to sit down so we can all stay seated.

[The Salmon Lord]

And when they disagree? Which as you say they do all the time. At some point anybody who looks at mutiple sources makes a decision, forms an opinion.

You can have an opinion without closing your mind to changing it in the future. Working with period sources continues to play a part in forming my opinions and my opinions are fluid.

And is it being a modern martial art so bad? After all it was a modern martial art in 1890. I rather thought the idea was to recreate them as modern martial arts not historical curiosities.

They can not be modern martial arts unless they are used to protect from death and cause incapacitation of opponents. The fact is that whatever opinions we may hold, we do not have any realistic prospect of using these systems in life or death struggles, or teaching other people to. The only way to get inside the mindset of a 19th century martial art is to study 19th century sources. No amount of 21st century practice in the salle can replace that.

Its probably worth seperateing this into a seperate thread such as "when do arts stop being historical"

Firstly I agree anybody who comes to my salle, you salle or any other to study C19th sabre with an expectation that it will protect them from death and cause incapacitation of opponents is in the wrong place or mixing in very bad company. However it does not stop them being a modern martial art to me. I recall from before you have a much narrower definition of what a martial art is than I have.
I do find the idea that western swordsmanship cannot be a "normal" martial art very sad and simply disagree. Its being studied in the 21st century. So long as one understands the context that the arts where used for, understands the techniques, and keep within them I dont see the issue. For some arts I beleive we are actually is a position to say, "yep we understand the system"

Having understood the mechanics how often does one actually need to refer back to them? I'm not cocking up in a fight because I misunderstood them. I cock up because I missapplied them.

Also I've read a lot of C19th manuals. Very few, in fact off the top of my head I can think of non whatsoever, actually discuss mindset. I would say Victorian manuals are very noticable mechanical in nature and avoid this area, certainly those in English.

[swahili]

...opinions of what we do by people who I've never heard...
/Anders

That wasn't an opinion of what you do, it was an opinion of what HEMA may become. Just like people are giving their opinion on what it may become if it strays too close to sports fencing. I gave it because the discussion seemed one-sided at the time.

[Ran Pleasant]

I've also noticed a trend, particularly among followers of the Pan-European Heresy, of cherry-picking ideas and techniques from manuals when they reflect things that those individuals are already doing, twisting other parts in an attempt to make them agree, and discarding everything that doesn't fit into this model they've invented. Ran is already on this thread so there's no sense in naming the obvious offender, but I've seen it elsewhere as well. Even though this approach is manual-based, I don't consider it indicative of a respect for the source materials.

As for my comment about instructors crystallizing their teachings, I'll leave that in its perfection and not say any more about it. If you agree or disagree, that's fine with me.

Once again the "Law of Chidester" is proven true.

The un-named obvious offender booted you from his un-named organization after just a couple of months way back in 2005 o 2006 and your assoicates were either booted or left in 2008 and 2009. Yet you claim to know that since that time that the un-named obvious offender and his students are "cherry-picking ideas and techniques from manuals" and "twisting" them into whatever. How absolutely silly of you Michael. But nothing more than what I have come to expect from you. By the way, any luck figuring out that Krump thing yet.

What you fail to comprehen about the un-name offender is that one of his biggest break through in recent years has actually been in his teaching methodology. Unlike you, the un-name offender turned to the historical manuals to see how the histoical masters were teaching the subject, as defined in their works. So while you were out running your mouth on the internet and cateloging the historical manuals he and his student had their noses in those very same manuals. That is why you are now about two generations behind him. So go ahead and let sport fencers teach you how to teach their sport, I'm sure it will look good on your resume or web page. The un-name offender and his students have found all they need to know about teaching the art in the manuals of the historical masters.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW

[Abomination]

I've also noticed a trend, particularly among followers of the Pan-European Heresy, of cherry-picking ideas and techniques from manuals when they reflect things that those individuals are already doing, twisting other parts in an attempt to make them agree, and discarding everything that doesn't fit into this model they've invented. Ran is already on this thread so there's no sense in naming the obvious offender, but I've seen it elsewhere as well. Even though this approach is manual-based, I don't consider it indicative of a respect for the source materials.

As for my comment about instructors crystallizing their teachings, I'll leave that in its perfection and not say any more about it. If you agree or disagree, that's fine with me.

Once again the "Law of Chidester" is proven true.

The un-named obvious offender booted you from his un-named organization after just a couple of months way back in 2005 o 2006 and your assoicates were either booted or left in 2008 and 2009. Yet you claim to know that since that time that the un-named obvious offender and his students are "cherry-picking ideas and techniques from manuals" and "twisting" them into whatever. How absolutely silly of you Michael. But nothing more than what I have come to expect from you. By the way, any luck figuring out that Krump thing yet.

What you fail to comprehen about the un-name offender is that one of his biggest break through in recent years has actually been in his teaching methodology. Unlike you, the un-name offender turned to the historical manuals to see how the histoical masters were teaching the subject, as defined in their works. So while you were out running your mouth on the internet and cateloging the historical manuals he and his student had their noses in those very same manuals. That is why you are now about two generations behind him. So go ahead and let sport fencers teach you how to teach their sport, I'm sure it will look good on your resume or web page. The un-name offender and his students have found all they need to know about teaching the art in the manuals of the historical masters.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW

Please grow up, both of you. Most of us don't give a rats arse about petty politics on the other side of the Atlantic.

Swahili - sorry mate who are you? That's not an agressive question. It's just most of the people here know each others background and that makes it easier to understand each others perspective.

[bigdummy]

When I was asked to lead the sabre study group, or actually asked to teach the sabre class, I downgraded it to study group as I do not feel I am qualified to call myself an instructor or coach. I have Maestro Sullins three hours away and he has that right by deed and study. My former Karate instructor has attained Hanshi (8th Dan.) Can I stand next to these people and call myself an instructor, hell no? So I looked around to see where I could get something to help me learn to teach aside from just doing it. In HEMA we have nothing. The closest I found to this was Military Maters of Arms programs, which may not be in the preferred weapons but they offer something. HEMA offers me nothing, did I mention that yet?

I have read too many threads arguing if HEMA should even offer ‘credentials’ and no real headway made to offer any training in coaching or teaching. Someone has now stood up and started offering something, where the traditional groups offer nothing. I would seek this out if in my area because it is all there is. If HEMA doesn’t want someone else coming in and giving credentials, give me an alternative. If not only one person has stood up in the room and everyone is telling them to sit down so we can all stay seated.

I can understand why you would want to get a sport-fencing certification to help you teach (and seem more legitimate as a teacher) but why not just call it what is is: a sport fencing certification. Sport fencing guys can't teach you to do HEMA. They can certify you in their own sport, which is fine and probably reflects well on your ability as a HEMA teacher. I just don't know why they are calling it an historical certification since they don't know anything about historical fencing.

BD

[bigdummy]

Please grow up,

Lets just try to keep the ARMA politics out of this thread, it's beside the point.

BD

[SeanH]

Sport fencing federation to certify HEMA? You don't play bumper cars to learn how to drive.

[Dave B]

But if you already knew how to drive very well, it might be worth learning some teaching techniques in order to pass your knowledge on. My suggestion would be that things like sport fencing and eastern martial arts have developed some good techniques for developing a teachers ability to teach, that those could be learned from where appropriate. I don't think anyone is suggesting that modern fencers are aiming to teach actual HEMA techniques?

I get the suggestion that it might be better to use the teaching techniques of the authors of the treatises, but I'd take some convincing that those are fully defined in many sources. Certainly you get quite late before you get a source I can think of that directly sets out how to teach/learn fencing, as opposed to concentrating on the techniques themselves. Of course I do admire the attempt to piece teaching techniques together from the little clues, but that can't be easy.

[Ran Pleasant]

...it might be worth learning some teaching techniques...

But you are making an assumption that the teaching techniques of sports fencing are right for historical fencing.

People can talk all day about "cerifying teaching". But when all is said and done it is going to be about "certifying HEMA". It is better to recognize bull shit before you step in it.

Ran

[Michael Chidester]

Please grow up,

Lets just try to keep the ARMA politics out of this thread, it's beside the point.

Sorry. Antagonizing Ran is just so easy that sometimes I can't help myself.

Sent from my Droid Incredible.

[Michael Chidester]

Please grow up,

Lets just try to keep the ARMA politics out of this thread, it's beside the point.

Sorry. Antagonizing Ran is just so easy that sometimes I can't help myself.

Sent from my Droid Incredible.

[SeanH]

...My suggestion would be that things like sport fencing and eastern martial arts have developed some good techniques for developing a teachers ability to teach, that those could be learned from where appropriate. I don't think anyone is suggesting that modern fencers are aiming to teach actual HEMA techniques?

In that case we'd be better off trying to emulate some koryu teaching methods, since those would be the most similar to what we are doing, apart from the complete secrecy, blood oath, etc (a hema/haema oath).

Do sport fencing federations have teaching techniques that are divorced from their fencing techniques? If we simply want to learn to teach, wouldn't we be better off learning from teachers, rather than sport fencing coaches? Admittedly I skimmed a lot of this thread, so this must have been suggested before, but there are far more options out there than just bowing down to said federations.

I agree with BD that it's a bit ridiculous having a body with no background in HEMA attempting to corner the market and certify HEMA instructors. If you, as an instructor, are certified by a sport fencing federation, in the eyes of the uninformed public (almost all potential students and/or their parents) it will give you more credibility than any uncertified long-time HEMA instructor, regardless of ability, teaching or otherwise. Does that not tilt the balance of the HEMA community towards those certified, and the certifying body?

It was won by Jeremy Steflik, who has an extensive background in sport fencing, before he came to HEMA. He used a very clearly sport fencing based approach to the dagger tournament.

Come now, shall we all do ballet so that we can win sword and buckler tournaments?

[Steve Reich]

[...] eastern martial arts have developed some good techniques for developing a teachers ability to teach, [...]

Interesting that you bring this up, because I find the JSA teaching model to be much more similar to the implied pedagogy of the Bolognese stuff I study than is the classical fencing model.

Steve

[Michael Chidester]

As I posted on Matt Galas' facebook just now, my thoughts boil down to this: I'm kind of excited that someone has finally put together a program aiming to improve the level of instruction in HEMA. I've never been happy with my own teaching skills, since really all I have are the ones I absorbed from my own instructors over time, and none of the books on martial arts instruction that I've bought really contained much material I could use. Even if this ends up not being the program I've been waiting for, it will still be an invaluable step forward if it galvanizes the community and convinces other organizations to attempt their own, superior instructor training programs.

[Reinier]

When I was asked to lead the sabre study group, or actually asked to teach the sabre class, I downgraded it to study group as I do not feel I am qualified to call myself an instructor or coach. I have Maestro Sullins three hours away and he has that right by deed and study. My former Karate instructor has attained Hanshi (8th Dan.) Can I stand next to these people and call myself an instructor, hell no? So I looked around to see where I could get something to help me learn to teach aside from just doing it. In HEMA we have nothing. The closest I found to this was Military Maters of Arms programs, which may not be in the preferred weapons but they offer something. HEMA offers me nothing, did I mention that yet?

I have read too many threads arguing if HEMA should even offer ‘credentials’ and no real headway made to offer any training in coaching or teaching. Someone has now stood up and started offering something, where the traditional groups offer nothing. I would seek this out if in my area because it is all there is. If HEMA doesn’t want someone else coming in and giving credentials, give me an alternative. If not only one person has stood up in the room and everyone is telling them to sit down so we can all stay seated.

Search further/better - in Germany they are starting a series of "Teach-the-teacher" seminars - I followed one excellent class on that at Dreynevent this year, and there is plenty of opportunity to learn from fellow instructors by seeking them out and discussing at events that are organised regularly.
I am sure HEMA-instructor courses, certificates etc will come, but that first requires people with very different mindsets to agree on very basic things, and on what those basic things are, actually.

[swahili]

Swahili - sorry mate who are you? That's not an agressive question. It's just most of the people here know each others background and that makes it easier to understand each others perspective.

No problem. My name is Craig Healey, I study small sword, Italian rapier and German longsword. I also fence epee as there is no one here fencing small sword, and I started out as a sports fencer at university. I think tournaments are very useful, but aren't the main point of what I do.

[Cutlery Penguin]

Firstly, hi Craig, and welcome.

My issue with this whole scenario is that it would seem that those defending the position of Sports Fencing Associations certifying HEMA instructors are actually defending the certification of Instructors. Not HEMA instructors. Yes they may well be in a great position to offer all sorts of advantages in teaching skills, but clearly they are not specific to HEMA as they are not HEMA organisations.

By that argument I would be as well served doing a coaching course in ten pin bowling, or Zumba.

[Abomination]

Swahili - sorry mate who are you? That's not an agressive question. It's just most of the people here know each others background and that makes it easier to understand each others perspective.

No problem. My name is Craig Healey, I study small sword, Italian rapier and German longsword. I also fence epee as there is no one here fencing small sword, and I started out as a sports fencer at university. I think tournaments are very useful, but aren't the main point of what I do.

Oh, It's you Craig, hello mate.