Sports fencing federations and HEMA

[Reinier]

But with this development, such a person can call him- or herself Maestro (Maestra? Maestrette?), and point to an impressive diploma on the wall - a diploma that to the uninitiated will carry more weight than a membership of what to the uninitiated will appear to be no more than a website, like HEMAC.

[Michael Chidester]

They can already do that. In fact, I can think of a few HEMA instructors who style themselves "maestro" of "fechtmeister" purely because they choose to (based on perfectly legitimate arguments about the definition of "master" in period which have nevertheless failed to carry weight in most of the HEMA community). Furthermore, there are various HEMA instructors, notably in the SFI crowd, who have earned a fencing master rank in sport or classical fencing and are therefore authorized to use the title by a legitimate national federation. In both of these circumstances, I've never heard stories about how the fact that they claim the title of fencing master has somehow harmed other schools or lead students away from superior instructors and down the path to perdition. HEMA continues to progress in spite of (or rather, with the participation of) these "masters".

[admin]

QFT.

Exactly what Michael said.

[Anders Linnard]

Michael, there are consequences you do not understand and you cannot foresee. I can't tell you what they are, because frankly I don't want to give the sport fencers any ideas. But this has the potential of being a huge, irrevocable problem for us. If that happens and we don't have the power to prevent it, I will be more than a little pissed off. Ken should have talked to the community first.

/Anders

[xedric]

Ken should have talked to the community first.

This.

[Phil C]

I'd be interested to know who makes up this "community".

[Cutlery Penguin]

I'd be interested to know who makes up this "community".

Exactly.

I'd be amazed if Ken hadn't talked to other people, but even if he didn't talk to anyone else so what? This is not a single entity, just a collection of people who enjoy a vaguely similar pastime.

Why does someone need permission from someone else to do something they see as beneficial?

[Phil C]

It's the usual "It's not on the internet therefore it's a secret!" problem.

[Anders Linnard]

It's the usual "It's not on the internet therefore it's a secret!" problem.

Well, it leaked prematurely didn't it?

The community? It's us and the organisations that we belong to.

/Anders

[Phil C]

Well, it leaked prematurely didn't it?

How can something that isn't a secret be leaked? My understanding is that someone put a private email on a forum ( not realising that is poor manners) and suddenly there was an uproar of prejudices and misunderstandings.

The community? It's us and the organisations that we belong to.

So anytime I want to do something I have to approach every organistion that exists to get their approval in case it might cause some anxiety in someone? This is something happening in one corner of another country in Arts I have no interest in and I suspect 99.9% of HEMA practitioners couldn't give a toss either, let alone want to be consulted every time someone wants to do something.

If I had the chance to ratify Pugilism under the Amateur Boxing Association, smallsword under the AFA or DDLR under the Savate Federation then I'd likely do the same as Ken and email all the people I know of a similar bent to me that could be interested but there's no way I'd want, or even be able, to ask everybody that did longsword/navaja/jogo de pau/rapier or Bratislavian Slugfechten first, nor should I have to.

[Michael Chidester]

Well, it leaked prematurely didn't it?

How can something that isn't a secret be leaked? My understanding is that someone put a private email on a forum ( not realising that is poor manners) and suddenly there was an uproar of prejudices and misunderstandings.

Close. It was the email list for Boston-area HEMA groups, which is private but "semi-public" in that it has a good number of subscribers. Ken mentioned in passing that one of the reasons to come to a seminar he was hosting was to get a preview of the upcoming program. So while I agree that it was poor manners to go waving it around the internet in such a fashion, Ken probably should have known better than to talk about it in a space where he couldn't trust everyone who would receive the message.

[Anders Linnard]

Well, it leaked prematurely didn't it?

How can something that isn't a secret be leaked? My understanding is that someone put a private email on a forum ( not realising that is poor manners) and suddenly there was an uproar of prejudices and misunderstandings.

The community? It's us and the organisations that we belong to.

So anytime I want to do something I have to approach every organistion that exists to get their approval in case it might cause some anxiety in someone? This is something happening in one corner of another country in Arts I have no interest in and I suspect 99.9% of HEMA practitioners couldn't give a toss either, let alone want to be consulted every time someone wants to do something.

I think all people in this community understand that sport fencing organisations may be competitors to HEMA organisations. If you don't understand that intuitively, then maybe the examples from Spain and France possibly should have made you at least contemplate that fact. So, if you are to approach and set things in motion with a national sport fencing body, it is not too much to ask that you first turn to the HEMA community to ask whether that is a good idea or not. At least if that is where your loyalty lies.

If it isn't a secret you could very well turn to the forums. I see no reason why you shouldn't. In any case there aren't that many organisations you would need to contact.

And if you don't ask, then don't expect me to applaude your efforts when I have to do damage control across the pond.
Anders

[Reinier]

Well, it leaked prematurely didn't it?

How can something that isn't a secret be leaked? My understanding is that someone put a private email on a forum ( not realising that is poor manners) and suddenly there was an uproar of prejudices and misunderstandings.

The community? It's us and the organisations that we belong to.

So anytime I want to do something I have to approach every organistion that exists to get their approval in case it might cause some anxiety in someone? This is something happening in one corner of another country in Arts I have no interest in and I suspect 99.9% of HEMA practitioners couldn't give a toss either, let alone want to be consulted every time someone wants to do something.

I think all people in this community understand that sport fencing organisations may be competitors to HEMA organisations. If you don't understand that intuitively, then maybe the examples from Spain and France possibly should have made you at least contemplate that fact. So, if you are to approach and set things in motion with a national sport fencing body, it is not too much to ask that you first turn to the HEMA community to ask whether that is a good idea or not. At least if that is where your loyalty lies.

If it isn't a secret you could very well turn to the forums. I see no reason why you shouldn't. In any case there aren't that many organisations you would need to contact.

And if you don't ask, then don't expect me to applaude your efforts when I have to do damage control across the pond.
Anders

I am with Anders on this one.

[admin]

I think it would help a lot of people if they simply understood the motivations. How you think this will affect you is one thing, but why you think it is being done could be something entirely different - good, good/good,bad/bad,good/bad,bad).

Some people will naturally assume that it is for selfish motivations (control, money, influence etc etc), some will assume that it is for altruistic motivations (promoting HEMA etc). We don't know.

This whole process presumably took quite a bit of time and effort on Ken's part, so I would imagine that whatever his motivations are they are quite strong.

[Stevie T]

And if you don't ask, then don't expect me to applaude your efforts when I have to do damage control across the pond.
Anders

But, why would you ask when you'd know you'd get this sort of attitude?

Did you put out posts to the wider community asking if it would be okay to form your own, made up, federation with no national acknowledgement?

I don't like the idea of what he's doing, but he can do what he likes, and remember the forums only represent a small faction of HEMA. Phil, Ian and Milo probably represent a type of HEMA that doesn't generally use Forums but is pretty sizeable.

[Anders Linnard]

But, why would you ask when you'd know you'd get this sort of attitude?

What type of attitude? I am being perfectly civil.

Did you put out posts to the wider community asking if it would be okay to form your own, made up, federation with no national acknowledgement?

Yes, we invited all groups doing HEMA in Sweden. There was also a long discussion on an open forum to which people were invited through Facebook, telephone calls, emails, events and other forums.During Swordfish there was an open invitation for all to attend. We have been trying to do this for quite a few years, but since not enough groups have felt it was a good idea until now, we have waited. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say no national acknowledgement. You probably don't understand how federations work in Sweden and you have absolutely no idea what the federation will do in terms of national credentials. It is a democratically run organisation, just like GHFS, and exactly what steps that will be taken in terms of national affiliations is a question for the BOD and the General meeting.

I don't like the idea of what he's doing, but he can do what he likes, and remember the forums only represent a small faction of HEMA.

You have to be able to distinguish between me expressing the opinion that this is a problem and me trying to forbid him from doing anything.

Phil, Ian and Milo probably represent a type of HEMA that doesn't generally use Forums but is pretty sizeable.

[/quote]

So, maybe he should have contacted them through other means than a forum...

/Anders

[swahili]

From Jeremy S on the HEMA alliance forum:

I was just over on the Schola Forum (which I still can't seem to register at for some reason) and felt the need to respond to a few things, since I've been quoted and criticized. If someone could post this over there for me I'd appreciate it.

Anders,
I understand your concerns, but the big difference between what's happening here in the US and what went on in Spain and France is that the USFCA doesn't even govern fencing in the US. They can't control who teaches and coaches that are certified by them are in the minority.

As to the 'poor form' for posting the email to begin with. The email was sent to a mailing list covering groups throughout the Northeast US and we are encouraged to forward announcements to interested parties. This was the 4th email sent about the coaching clinic, which was advertised on askFRED, a national database of fencing tournaments, events and results. The entire purpose of the email was the Historical certification, that's not mentioning it in passing Michael. Considering the opening statement:

I'm pleased to announce that the USFCA has approved a plan to officially certify historical fencing instructors


and the general purpose of the mailing list, yeah, I felt completely comfortable posting it.

[Anders Linnard]

Anders,
I understand your concerns, but the big difference between what's happening here in the US and what went on in Spain and France is that the USFCA doesn't even govern fencing in the US. They can't control who teaches and coaches that are certified by them are in the minority.

That makes no difference to the problems which may arise from this, but since I can't reveal what they are, this discussion is sort of futile anyway.

Anders

[Mitlov]

I haven't read through all eleven pages of this, but I wanted to weigh in. I wanted to point out that the United States Fencing Coaches' Association is NOT the same as the US Fencing Coaches' College (associated with USA Fencing). Many many many high-ranking and respected sport fencing coaches are not part of the USFCA. For example, my first coach, who I trained with from 1995 to 1999, is kind of a really big deal on the US Olympic epee scene:

Gary Copeland - Head Coach

Founder and head coach of Northern Colorado Fencers since 1979. Gary has coached more than 800 U.S. national competition finalists (1st-8th place) from 1988-2005, including 46 individual U.S. national champions, 14 U.S. national team champions, and 64 junior and cadet World champions and Pan-American team positions.

Gary was named 1999 U.S. Olympic Committee Fencing Coach of the Year and has served as U.S. National Team coach on more than 20 U.S. national teams. He is currently Assistant Director of the U.S. Fencing Coaches College at the U.S. Olympic Training center in Colorado Springs.

He does not have USFCA certification.

So USFCA certification is anything but universal. It's not required to coach, or required to be a respected coach. If it hasn't become effectively required to coach Olympic fencing, it certainly would never be effectively required to teach HEMA fencing. It's an additional resource out there for coaches who want some additional instruction on how to teach, but it's not mandatory and never will be (either de facto mandatory or de jure mandatory).

EDIT: Interestingly, a disproportionate number of the coaches who have USFCA fencing already tend to be the ones who primarily teach classical fencing instead of Olympic-style electric fencing. As just one example, only one of the coaches affiliated with my current club is USFCA certified, and it just so happens that he's the one who teaches the classical foil class. None of our electric foil, electric epee, or electric saber coaches are USFCA certified.

[Mitlov]

I can't tell you what they are, because frankly I don't want to give the sport fencers any ideas. But this has the potential of being a huge, irrevocable problem for us.

If you think that there's this conspiracy among sport fencers to destroy HEMA, you couldn't be more wrong. Both clubs I've been a member of are primarily oriented toward FIE fencing, but both clubs also have a classical fencing instructor and a classical fencing program associated with the school (at least NCF did when I was there; not sure if they still do). Why? Because a certain number of people who join the club turn out not to be interested in Olympic-style fencing competition, and if the school has an associated classical fencing or HEMA fencing program, we can just direct these people to that program instead of losing them entirely. Likewise, if someone starts out thinking they want to do historical fencing, but they get bitten by the competition bug and HEMA can't adequately scratch that competition itch, they can just switch programs instead of leaving the school entirely.

Having both a HEMA program with a HEMA coach and an FIE fencing program with a FIE coach, both under the same roof, is just plain economically smart, especially in smaller cities and smaller communities where both an Olympic fencing club and a HEMA fencing club would have trouble on their own keeping membership high enough to pay the rent. When Olympic fencing and HEMA fencing coexist, everybody wins.

So there is no FIE fencing conspiracy to hamstring or destroy HEMA fencing. There just isn't.