Sports fencing federations and HEMA

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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Steve Reich » 08 Mar 2012 18:55

Ran Pleasant wrote:Doing nothing is ok.

I'm with Ran on this. If I don't find what the USFCA is doing is relevant, I just won't give it any consideration. People keep saying that USFCA is filling a hole that no one else seems to be willing to fill, but I disagree. Many people are filling this void, just not on any national or international scale. There are many HEMA groups that have solid curricula and do a decent job of training students and instructors; the beauty of this is that they are wide and varied so that as a student, you can pick the group that suits you. While I have definite ideas of what I think good instruction is, my vision isn't the only vision and this diversity is a good thing, IMHO.

Even if the worst-case scenario happens and the USFCA is successful at implementing a certification program and I hate it, it's not like they are going to send a bunch of thugs armed with saber-hilted car antennae to my school to rough me up if I teach without their certification.

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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Cutlery Penguin » 08 Mar 2012 19:16

Ran Pleasant wrote:Clements wants nothing from sports fencing and sport fencing has absolutely nothing to offer ARMA. Back in 2000 when sports fencing was laughing their ass off at those of us trying to recreate these arts Clements predicted that at some point in the future sports fencing would realize they dropped the baby and would then want to assert their authority over us and that their first steps would through certification. It is now clear beyound any doubts that Clements was spot on with his prediction.


Oh do be quiet.
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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby harry tow » 08 Mar 2012 19:22

knirirr wrote:
harry tow wrote:HEMA Reinactor First Class Coaching Certifications are much easier to obtain for insurance purposes :D


If it's anything to do with re-enactment swordplay then I'd rather avoid it, for various reasons.


There is no such thing as a HEMA Reinactor First Class Coaching Certification. It doesn't exist. I made it up to prove a point. That is insurance companies (at least in the US) can't tell the difference between a coaching certificate issued by a legitimate organization and one issued by a one man self proclaimed association printing coaching certificates out of his garage. The one man association doesn't know anything about HEMA, any more than sport fencing does. So why shouldn't he have the right to issue certificates for HEMA coaches? If you're doing it for insurance purposes, why not proclaim yourself an association (at least in the US) and issue yourself a coaching certification.

To demonstrate how ridiculously easy it is to become an official non-profit association in the United States, take a look at the link for this government approved HEMA Association.

http://www.hemanetwork.org/

Now a coaching certificate from them means something special :shock:
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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Stevie T » 08 Mar 2012 19:44

I think the unfortunate thing here is that someone has started the ball rolling in regard to getting a sports fencing organisation involved in certifying HEMA, at least in the US (and if it takes off it will not be long until other countries notice and look to doing the same; HEMA kit is already showing up on the top supplier's websites).

There are a few Federations starting up at the moment and I would have preferred them to have a year or two to settle in to the job before they had to start devising qualifications and figuring out ways to get them nationally recognised. As it is, I think they're all going to have to start to sort some form of coaching certificate course pretty soon to stop sports-fencing taking control.

And it's not all about money, it's also about power. JC has already tried to claim to be the voice of HEMA through the UN, and as much as many on here have problems with him he at least represents HEMA, and he'll get pushed aside by bigger organisations who will not represent us at all.

I hope the HEMA feds can come up with something that relates purely to the ability to teach rather than including techniques. As many people of have said, there is still too much variation in interpretation to be able to categorically state what is right and wrong, even the argument of "martially sound" relies on an assumption that everything an author did was martially sound.

So, as much as I dislike the idea, people are right; we need to step up and starting filling the void before some other organisation does.
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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Reinier » 08 Mar 2012 19:52

Anders Linnard wrote:I am currently reworking it and we are thinking about translating it into english as well.


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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Bulot » 08 Mar 2012 21:11

Reinier wrote:I am currently reworking it and we are thinking about translating it into english as well.


Yes, please!


Seconded.
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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Steven H » 08 Mar 2012 21:53

Steve Reich wrote:Even if the worst-case scenario happens and the USFCA is successful at implementing a certification program and I hate it, it's not like they are going to send a bunch of thugs armed with saber-hilted car antennae to my school to rough me up if I teach without their certification.

Steve


Thanks for putting this so well.

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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Michael Chidester » 09 Mar 2012 05:15

So apparently when I told Anders Linnard yesterday that I don't have a reputation I was incorrect, and my positiveness on this and its fellow thread on the HEMA Alliance forum has raised a few eyebrows (and prompted at least one death threat--I suspect it was in jest, though). I am equally baffled as to the reason why people who I know to be intelligent and reasonable are treating this as quite literally the End of the [HEMA] World and even the unflappable Emperor Jake is speaking out against it, so rather than abandon these threads without further comment as I had planned, I guess I'll briefly lay out my thoughts on the matter.

In the first place, I believe that there's no wrong way to do HEMA. There are dozens of different approaches in our community, and I think there's merit to all of them. (Hell, despite what Ran thinks I don't even have a problem with the ARMA method, merely a personal beef with its director; the rest of the armateers are okay in my book.) That includes approaches influenced by classical and olympic fencing. We're all united by our desire to reconstruct the forgotten arts described by the manuals--as far as I'm concerned, the more variety that exists in the approaches that are cultivated in the community, the faster our body of knowledge will grow.

In the second place, I realize that for many of you this represents an assault by a faceless alien organization on the integrity of the arts that we all cherish. For me it does not. I see it as being driven primarily by Ken Mondschein and his boys, and I've met Ken and spent time bullshitting and discussing manuals and so on. He lives less than an hour away and I expect I'll share a drink with the man some time soon. That's the face I attach to this project, and while he may conceivably have some nefarious purpose in all of this, I think it unlikely. The USFCA is most likely involved because he was already a member of said organization as part of his classical fencing practice (a Prevot last time I checked) and saw that they used a robust pedagogy based on several centuries of teaching a sword-based art, and further recognized that it could be applied to Medieval weapons; he pushed this program on the sport fencers, I expect, and as such it could just as easily be seen as the attempted conquest of the USFCA by HEMA.

In the third position, I want a program to exist that teaches HEMA instructors how to teach. Of everything that has been lost in these arts, the method of instruction is the most grievous. Other arts include instructor development in their normal classes, expecting students to absorb as they advance an ancient pedagogy passed down along with the techniques themselves. We don't have that, we don't know how Liechtenauer or Fiore trained their students, and we likely never will. That means that we have to build a new one, which is something that some HEMA teachers simply aren't up to--I attempted it three years ago, and I feel like I largely failed. Two of my former students will fight in the FA tournament this year, and I can take no credit for anything that they achieve there.

Now then, I acknowledge that perhaps Ken and the USFCA are the wrong people to give us such a pedagogy--I acknowledge it and then I dismiss it. Two years ago, I was unquestionably the wrong person to create the Wiktenauer. The "right person" was Matt Galas, or Steve Hick, or another one of the HEMA fathers. I wasn't a well-known or trusted researcher, and even today I can name ten or twelve members of our community off the top of my head who I believe to have much greater knowledge of the manuals than I do (including Ken, incidentally); there are dozens more who are much more knowledgeable than I within their corner of the manual tradition. My first attempts were terrible, I'll admit that flat out; I made every mistake imaginable, and I rebuilt the whole thing from scratch at least twice in the first six months. However, I was the one who stepped up and did it, and that's why people go to Wiktenauer today to look at manuals rather than WMAWiki or any of the other abandoned projects along the same lines.

Likewise, Ken has the desire to get this done, and he has the resources through his connections in the USFCA, and he can legitimately claim to have access to an effective pedagogy for teaching a sword-based art that is descended through many generations from HEMA itself. I applaud this, and wish him the best of luck. He's been criticized for not discussing this program with the internet while developing this; aside from the fact that he had no reason to do so since he was porting an existing pedagogy over to a different system rather than building that pedagogy from the ground up, I don't see why he was under any obligation to in the first place. His approach will not be for everyone, and indeed, I would oppose any attempt to assert hegemony over the American HEMA community. He is simply the first person to arrive at the market (speaking of a marketplace of ideas, not an industry), and could very well corner it for that reason. However, I hope that instead this will drive other organizations to compete with him, and in that competition to create a dialogue about the best way to train HEMA fighters. The creation of a dozen different instructor certification programs, each based on a different approach and backed by a different corner of the community, would be an enormous boon to all of us and bring us much closer to hammering out a pedagogy perfectly suited to our arts.

So there are my thoughts on the matter. Our community is typically fragmented and factious, but occasionally that works in our favor. Privately, I refer to the Gesellschaft Wiktenauers by a different name: they're my Coalition of People Who Hate Each Other. It's mostly a joke, but I know for a fact that some people on that list truly do hate or despise certain others. And yet, while pursuing their own individual research projects in whatever way seems them best--and sometimes while attempting to attack and disprove each other--they've produced the largest collection of HEMA source material ever assembled, a compilation so vast that even Paulus Hector Mair would wet himself. I hope that this program will benefit us in a similar manner by not only producing a stable of excellent HEMA instructors under the USFCA banner--and possibly cast a little bit more publicity on historical fencing as a separate but related discipline to its classical and Olympic descendents--but also by motivating the rest of the community to push back against it--and each other!--and in so doing put a lot more attention on the best ways of teaching the next generation of Western martial artists.

Postscript: I will continue reading this thread since I can't seem to tear myself away completely, so feel free to rip me a new asshole if you disagree and I'll see it. However, I had every intent of walking away from this thread twelve hours ago, so I don't plan on participating much henceforth. If you really want to engage me about this and correct my gross misconceptions, I always respond to PMs and hell, most of you are my Facebook friends anyways. If you say something provocative enough, I might just jump back in though.
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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Dave B » 09 Mar 2012 09:41

An excellent and well reasoned argument.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with it, but nonetheless a good argument.
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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Keith P. Myers » 09 Mar 2012 11:54

Dave B wrote:An excellent and well reasoned argument.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with it, but nonetheless a good argument.



Yes Michael, very well put!

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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby harry tow » 09 Mar 2012 15:10

Yes, this is a very compelling and logical argument for the acceptance of the USFCA’s efforts.

However…………It is a HUGE stretch of the imagination and a mistake by any measure to compare an organization like the USFCA with the modern day equivalents of the Gesellschaft Liechtenauers. If this is the standard we’re going to set for ourselves then we might as well welcome the Association of Light Saber Fencers into the fold too.

As our movement gets deeper into the historical writings, who can deny the damage that was perpetrated upon our martial legacy by the modern idea of swordplay. We are trying to turn back the clock to save an art that became extinct under their stewardship. If it were up to this group, modern day HEMA would have died at birth. Why would we want to grant them our tacit approval by giving them an unearned pass to get back into the hen house? Let them earn it.

If you replaced “USFCA” with the initials of any organization whose actually made a contribution to the modern HEMA revival or even knows what it is, we would have little to argue about. No amount of dancing around; ignoring or diverting our objections will change the fact that the USFCA hasn’t earned the right to put an official HEMA stamp on anything. Putting more lipstick on that pig won’t make it any prettier.
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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Anders Linnard » 09 Mar 2012 16:02

Thank you for clarifying your position Michael and I really hope that whoever made the death threat apologizes to you!

It feels however as you are completely missing the main points. This is not about a discussion whether HEMA is in need of training instructors (we are), or whether sport fencing can contribute in developing HEMA instructors (they can). The point is that they are moving into our domain before we've had time to set up our own organisation, and frankly there are dangers with this. Your personal need for instructor training is turning into something that the entire community now will have to cope with and you have set things in motion which we are not comfortable with.

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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Michael Chidester » 09 Mar 2012 16:34

Anders Linnard wrote:Your personal need for instructor training is turning into something that the entire community now will have to cope with and you have set things in motion which we are not comfortable with.

For the record, I'm not in any way affiliated with this program, nor was I involved in its development. I suppose I should have mentioned that before. The first I heard about it since Ken put out feelers two years ago was a (possibly drunken) exchange on Facebook two weeks ago when he said something big was going to happen soon, but he couldn't tell me about it.
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Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Anders Linnard » 09 Mar 2012 17:43

Mea culpa. Still, individual interests within our community taking risks by collaborating with organisations the community has no control over.
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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby The Salmon Lord » 09 Mar 2012 18:04

Anders Linnard wrote:Thank you for clarifying your position Michael and I really hope that whoever made the death threat apologizes to you!

It feels however as you are completely missing the main points. This is not about a discussion whether HEMA is in need of training instructors (we are), or whether sport fencing can contribute in developing HEMA instructors (they can). The point is that they are moving into our domain before we've had time to set up our own organisation, and frankly there are dangers with this. Your personal need for instructor training is turning into something that the entire community now will have to cope with and you have set things in motion which we are not comfortable with.

/Anders


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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Steve Reich » 09 Mar 2012 18:20

Like I said before, while I understand that people might not be interested in this, I don't know what people are worried about. Look at the possible outcomes and the implications:

1. USFCA certification is useful and popular: Great! Many people do it and the quality of instruction goes up in HEMA.

2. USFCA certification is useful but not popular: Decent result. Not many people do it but it improves the quality of instruction in those who do.

3. USFCA certification is not useful but it is popular: A group of people will do this, maybe forming another HEMA clique, maybe not.

4. USFCA certification is neither useful nor popular: A very small clique forms and then fades away...

I would argue that variations of all of those outcomes except the top one have existed and still exist in HEMA right now and yet, HEMA seems to get along fine. Yes, there are cliques in HEMA with rivalries among them, but this would be true even if every single HEMA instructor was certified by USFCA (or some other organization); that's the nature of communities. There's no way to force anyone to do any of this--HEMA organizations that have tried heavy-handed tactics and tried to lord their qualifications over everyone else have only succeeded in marginalizing themselves from the community.

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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Anders Linnard » 09 Mar 2012 18:38

I fear that the sport fencers wouldn't be as liberal as you are if we started certifying sport fencing instructors.

Still, all the things that can be said about this has been said. I am unlikely to be able to convince anyone to stop this now. I hope it leads to HEMA federations moving quicker to present alternatives, which is the only good outcome I can see in all of this on a community level.

/Anders - who, for the record, has nothing against sport fencing
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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Steve Reich » 09 Mar 2012 18:43

Anders Linnard wrote:I fear that the sport fencers wouldn't be as liberal as you are if we started certifying sport fencing instructors.

Probably not. OTOH, if we certified them and got results (i.e. our fencers were winning tournaments and/or our coaches were producing winners), they would definitely notice. In any case, how the sport fencing community would react if the situation were reversed has no bearing on how I should act/react.

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Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Anders Linnard » 09 Mar 2012 19:03

As i said, all arguments have been exhausted, no need for me to regurgitate arguments of control etc.
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Re: Sports fencing federations and HEMA

Postby Monster Zero » 09 Mar 2012 19:10

I personally find this appalling.

Not many people know this, but in the US there has been a consistent effort by a well known professional society for athletic trainers and physical educators to regulate and require all martial arts instructors to go through their courses to achieve certification.

It's been opposed on multiple fronts and legislation defeated across the board for this, but efforts like this really stink of that.

Sport fencers really have no place certifying things that are outside of their sport.

What's next, them offering certification for badminton?
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