Sports fencing federations and HEMA

[bigdummy]

I’d next have to ask what is everyone’s opinion of Ken as a HEMA instructor? If you claim USFCA cannot certify HEMA because they know nothing of HEMA, what does Ken know? What do the other people teaching these classes know? What if they brought Leoni on? Basically I’m saying at this point of a young course work, they will be judged by the names they bring on staff. If HEMA wants to retain the ability to certify its own people we need to do it and not let another group do it for us. They will not wait for us make up our mind. Those with outside credentials will work with the outside groups they believe can help and if the USFCA will offer the class this year in a place I can actually take it, I’ll take it. If HEMA offers one as well I’ll take it too. If USFCA offers it and HEMA doesn’t for five years then HEMA will be falling behind.

This sounds like a great way for certain people to gain an "official" status which some have been craving for many years.

BD

[Joeli]

This sounds like a great way for certain people to gain an "official" status which some have been craving for many years.

On the other hand, with the rise of national organizations, the power to give any kind of official status to HEMA instructors* is more and more in HEMA's hands. But I am sure there will be people who are going to try to rise themselves to such status.


*Funny how it always seems to be an instructor thing. Researchers, transsrcibers, show fighters and tournament winners seldom seem to make any claims for official status.

[Michael Chidester]

What exactly makes you think that getting a certification in teaching should not involve a couple of years of dedicated study in the subject matter and in teaching?

Nothing, I'm simply not in a position to take a few years off of my life to go back to college, let alone pat for it all. Sixty or a hundred hours of focused tutoring is much more workable. I'm not looking for a job in education, just structures to improve my fencing classes.

Sent from my Droid Incredible.

[Michael Chidester]

What exactly makes you think that getting a certification in teaching should not involve a couple of years of dedicated study in the subject matter and in teaching?

Nothing, I'm simply not in a position to take a few years off of my life to go back to college, let alone pat for it all. Sixty or a hundred hours of focused tutoring is much more workable. I'm not looking for a job in education, just structures to improve my fencing classes.

Sent from my Droid Incredible.

[The Salmon Lord]

*Funny how it always seems to be an instructor thing. Researchers, transsrcibers, show fighters and tournament winners seldom seem to make any claims for official status.

These people dont usually need to prove to an insurer or venue they are hiring that they are these things. Instructors tend to need to.

[Mink]

*Funny how it always seems to be an instructor thing. Researchers, transsrcibers, show fighters and tournament winners seldom seem to make any claims for official status.

These people dont usually need to prove to an insurer or venue they are hiring that they are these things. Instructors tend to need to.

Actually the same thing appears for researchers, in particular with museums refusing to provide access unless you show academic credentials.

Regards,

[Dave B]

Indeed. I found having a sister working at the ENS then as senior lecturer in french literature at Durham invaluable when I needed something from the Bibliotheque nationale. But thats a problem all researchers that do not work for a university have, not restricted to HEMA.

[MugginsToadwort]

Indeed. I found having a sister working at the ENS then as senior lecturer in french literature at Durham invaluable when I needed something from the Bibliotheque nationale. But thats a problem all researchers that do not work for a university have, not restricted to HEMA.

I'll admit to use my academic credentials to gain access a lot of people can't get...

[Anders Linnard]

Yes, I totally get that. But my gut tells me that the miscommunication between the two sides of this debate is one of semantics and perception. The United States Fencing Coaches' Association will soon announce that they're introducing a historical fencing branch to operate alongside their existing classical fencing and olympic fencing programs. That's the only fact in play (on this side of the ocean, at least). Some of us view it as a positive development, the first step in a hopefully widespread push to raise the quality of instruction in HEMA. Others of us view it as the first volley in an all-out assault on the integrity of HEMA as a separate discipline from modern fencing. We're both looking at the same facts and adding huge amounts of interpretation, which is turning into an argument. That's what's baffling me. "Certify our instructors in HEMA" is an example of this. Nothing that Ken has revealed points to a certification in HEMA, and the real intent is "certifying HEMA instructors in coaching". But your wording reveals a lot about the fears that are in play here.

Well, what is really revealing is that they are opening instruction for teaching rapier and longsword. They are not opening a course in sport pedagogy in general, but these two activities specifically.
/Anders

[Reinier]

Indeed. I found having a sister working at the ENS then as senior lecturer in french literature at Durham invaluable when I needed something from the Bibliotheque nationale. But thats a problem all researchers that do not work for a university have, not restricted to HEMA.

I'll admit to use my academic credentials to gain access a lot of people can't get...

Guilty as charged. I am going to miss that...

[knirirr]

These people dont usually need to prove to an insurer or venue they are hiring that they are these things. Instructors tend to need to.

That is the only reason I have every pursued any kind of instructor certification in HEMA; I have no interest in it other than as a means to gain insurance and a training venue.

[harry tow]

These people dont usually need to prove to an insurer or venue they are hiring that they are these things. Instructors tend to need to.

That is the only reason I have every pursued any kind of instructor certification in HEMA; I have no interest in it other than as a means to gain insurance and a training venue.

HEMA Reinactor First Class Coaching Certifications are much easier to obtain for insurance purposes

[Stahlberg]

This

Well, what is really revealing is that they are opening instruction for teaching rapier and longsword. They are not opening a course in sport pedagogy in general, but these two activities specifically.

Is it possible to design a coaching programme for specific weapons without actually getting into the technicalities and fighting style of said weapon? I highly doubt that. Having had a look at UFSCA:s other programmes, I can't say I get the feeling that they're separating between teaching methodology and the technical, tactical and biomechanical understanding of the designated weapon. In fact, it looks like it's quite the other way around - any teaching certification tied to a specific weapon is intimately linked with knowledge about that weapon and the fighting style connected to it. Otherwise, what’s the point of weapon specific certification?

A couple of questions then:
Can this even be done without also spilling over in a technical canon for longsword (for example)? If not, who would be the chosen ONE to provide such an abomination (seeing as how we don’t exactly have a history of consensus, or agreement on the current state of our understanding of the arts we practice)?
Will this certification, or others like it, be IT in the future (as in: you have this certification or you are by default unqualified to teach longsword)? I generally don’t like it when people try to take the right of defining what I do away from me, especially on such shaky grounds. And that’s what this feels like to me.

Speaking from a Swedish view point (unofficial world champs at bureaucracy and all-around suckers for benign authority), I think we should hang on a bit before getting all certified and regulated. I think there’s a bit of growing up to be done first, for example an evolution of the national federations.

So, YES to an exchange of knowledge with the sport fencing communities in the world (as well as with other sports or martial arts communities) and NO to weapon specific certification at this point. If a more general certification, such as sport pedagogy, is viable, I see no problems.

/Andreas

[Anders Linnard]

You can teach a lot of stuff that is useful for instructors, like technique development (the phases of coordination etc), how to train for fitness, how to create exercises, how to break down problems or teach complicated combinations, how to coach and how to set up personal training schedules as well as a curriculum. I have written about some of these things in our methodology document Hur vi tränar (available on our site). I am currently reworking it and we are thinking about translating it into english as well.

But that should of course be paired with training of a certain weapon set. Regardless, they are obviously differentiating between their regular certificate, rapier and longsword, so you are probably right about them.

Anders

[Ran Pleasant]

I’d next have to ask what is everyone’s opinion of Ken as a HEMA instructor? If you claim USFCA cannot certify HEMA because they know nothing of HEMA, what does Ken know? What do the other people teaching these classes know? What if they brought Leoni on? Basically I’m saying at this point of a young course work, they will be judged by the names they bring on staff. If HEMA wants to retain the ability to certify its own people we need to do it and not let another group do it for us. They will not wait for us make up our mind. Those with outside credentials will work with the outside groups they believe can help and if the USFCA will offer the class this year in a place I can actually take it, I’ll take it. If HEMA offers one as well I’ll take it too. If USFCA offers it and HEMA doesn’t for five years then HEMA will be falling behind.

I believe this should be viewed as a wakeup call to get moving.

John

Think about what you said above. You asked what does this person know? What does that person know? The absolute truth is that no one knows enought! We are still in the first years of RECREATING these lost arts. No one really knows what these arts truely were! And some of you want to start certifying people?

Sports fencers are the ones that have fallen behind. In fact, they have not even started. That is the real wakeup call.

Ran Pleasant

[harry tow]

No one really knows what these arts truely were! And some of you want to start certifying people?

Well thanks for pointing out the elephant in room and ruining a perfectly good endless argument

[KeithFarrell]

http://www.idokan.pl/txt/tomXI/4/(9)%20Wojciech%20J.%20Cynarski,%20Wojciech%20Bajorek%20-%20Institutionalization%20of%20the%20jujutsu%20martial%20art%20in%20Poland%20%96%20the%20problem%20of%20teaching%20qualifications.pdf

I just came across this article about certifying Jujitsu teachers in Poland. Surprisingly, the article mentions a lot of the same issues that we are discussing here! While it is about a different martial art entirely, I think it is an interesting read and it is good to see a published journal article highlighting some of these issues.

[John H]

John

Think about what you said above. You asked what does this person know? What does that person know? The absolute truth is that no one knows enought! We are still in the first years of RECREATING these lost arts. No one really knows what these arts truely were! And some of you want to start certifying people?

Sports fencers are the ones that have fallen behind. In fact, they have not even started. That is the real wakeup call.

Ran Pleasant

First off I’m not saying let’s put ourselves under the organization. I’m saying let wake up, take a look around and understand that if we don’t move down the path someone else will forge it for us. If I had the time and years to put together what I believe would be a good background for what I would consider good for teaching these arts I would get a sport fencing Maestro title, amongst other things. Be it sport fencing or historical fencing, fencing is a part of sword work just like grappling is. The title also certifies ‘teachers’ which is more valuable, and the curriculum has many things in common that I can quite easily apply to my classes. I am not stupid I do not expect a sports class to properly teach me second level ligadura but many concepts that are taught in sport fencing like; ’make sure your strike takes less time than your opponents ability to defend, by costing them time in your actions,’ work perfectly fine when I move it to longsword. I know that I have the mental capacity to make these connections and I don’t need someone teaching those details to me, as I already have taken such concepts from the old sports classes I was in and applied it to my classes. The drills on voiding I did when I was learning sports sabre, I have adapted to rapier, longsword and military sabre and they work just fine.

I have thought through what I said, the organization is not the one teaching the class, there will be an individual teaching the class. I do not know who this individual is at this point, but if that individual knows longsword and knows how to teach sports fencing , then yes he can teach a class on teaching longsword. Let me flip this on you, if Clements had approached them do get this going instead of Ken, can you really tell me you would be as outraged as you are now? You know you would be supporting it. I know that if Maestro MacDonald wanted to teach a class on teaching Broadsword even if it was under a sports fencing organization, I may fly to Scotland to take it. It is not the organization that matters it is the teacher; that is my point.

Sitting around and saying ‘oh these are dead arts we can’t ever know how to teach them’ is a passive way to say, let’s do nothing. If you lead a study group or teach a class, you obviously know something, and you are already passing your knowledge to others. Every teacher I had that I respected, knew they were still students.

[knirirr]

HEMA Reinactor First Class Coaching Certifications are much easier to obtain for insurance purposes

If it's anything to do with re-enactment swordplay then I'd rather avoid it, for various reasons.

[Ran Pleasant]

Let me flip this on you, if Clements had approached them do get this going instead of Ken, can you really tell me you would be as outraged as you are now? You know you would be supporting it. I know that if Maestro MacDonald wanted to teach a class on teaching Broadsword even if it was under a sports fencing organization, I may fly to Scotland to take it. It is not the organization that matters it is the teacher; that is my point.

Clements wants nothing from sports fencing and sport fencing has absolutely nothing to offer ARMA. Back in 2000 when sports fencing was laughing their ass off at those of us trying to recreate these arts Clements predicted that at some point in the future sports fencing would realize they dropped the baby and would then want to assert their authority over us and that their first steps would through certification. It is now clear beyound any doubts that Clements was spot on with his prediction.

Sitting around and saying ‘oh these are dead arts we can’t ever know how to teach them’ is a passive way to say, let’s do nothing. If you lead a study group or teach a class, you obviously know something, and you are already passing your knowledge to others. Every teacher I had that I respected, knew they were still students.

Doing nothing is ok. Why not tell sports fencing, "f*ck you very much but no thanks". There is not a valid reason for jumping in bed with sports fencing. When you dance with the devil beware of who is going to be stepping on your toes! Sport fencing is a major business and once they entrer a market they are going to look a expending within that market....that's what businesses do.

And Ken just wants to help us? I wonder what the title is for the one who oversees the certification? Now that's what will look good on a resume.

Ran