My Class in Dijon

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Choose the class

Lonnergan's Spadroon
7
54%
Italian and English sword
0
No votes
Single and double weapons in Prize Fighting
6
46%
 
Total votes : 13

My Class in Dijon

Postby Carlo » 28 Mar 2006 22:24

Hello,
I have a decision to take.
I have three class ready to refine and to choose from in Dijon:
1) Lonnergan's Spadroon
2) Comparison between English and Italian sword
3) Single and double weapons in Gladiatorial prize fighting (sword, sword and dagger, falshion, double falshion)

The latter presents the complication that one needs four weapons to attend and most of it intepretational, because the masters gave just some tips.

What would yuo prefer to see?


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Re: My Class in Dijon

Postby Gerald Cavey » 28 Mar 2006 22:38

Carlo wrote:Spadroon


The only acceptable weapon for a gentleman following the Colours
I may be a little biased about this :D

Tell me how it turns out
Last edited by Gerald Cavey on 28 Mar 2006 22:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Paul » 28 Mar 2006 22:39

Double falchion sounds right up my alley. I really would like to see some of that in a European context. 8)
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Postby Stunt Weasel » 28 Mar 2006 22:45

Not that I'll be there, but I'm a spadroon man myself.

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Postby Anders Linnard » 29 Mar 2006 07:49

Spadroon! Looking forward to it and meeting you again! I enjoyed your class very much last year.

/The Monkey
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Postby admin » 29 Mar 2006 10:45

I'd say to stick to what you know best, which I think is spadroon.

Also, as far as I know there are no actual instructions or precise descriptions of how the case of falchions or swords were used in English prize fights.
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Postby caous » 29 Mar 2006 16:37

Spadroon seems fun.
But two swords seems fun too.
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Postby Carlo » 29 Mar 2006 20:48

Also, as far as I know there are no actual instructions or precise descriptions of how the case of falchions or swords were used in English prize fights.



That's true. The matter is that most probably a backswordsman of the past, accustomed to use sword and dagger , had little problem adapting to the case of falshions, basically because the latter weapons used double against another couple are so dangerous that there are really a few intelligent things you can do (and 1000 stupid things). We know what guard they used though and the general approach to the double weapons fight.

It's rather interesting that most bouts in Silver times were played with the backsword and the two handed sword, while in 18th century they rediscovered the falshion and the staff as alternatives to the backsword.
Falshions were rather "gentle" hangers later but bloody short and wide machetes in Mc Bane's time.


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Postby Ty N. » 29 Mar 2006 20:54

I haven't a clue what a spadroon is, but I do like saying 'spadroon'...

spadroon...
spadroon...
spadroon...

:P
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Postby Carlo » 29 Mar 2006 21:42

[img] http://forums.swordforum.com/attachment ... tid=546152 [\img]

[img] http://forums.swordforum.com/attachment ... tid=741470 [\img]

A couple among my collection of wasters
[img] http://forums.swordforum.com/attachment ... tid=736679[\img]

Hi Ty,
a spadroon is a light cut and thrust sword of short to medium lenght, either straight or lightly curved, single or double edged, with various possible hilt configurations, ranging from a plain knuckle bar to a dish or even basket hilt.
Today it doesn't meet the taste of the broadsword or smallsword fencer, and due to the relative fragility of the 1796 pattern it's labeled as ineffective. There are at least two masters holding it's superiority over the broad and smallsword in the 18th century because a good sample can can use the play of both weapons, within limits. Wether the spadroon is more of a broadsword or a short rapier depends by the sample.
Donald Mc Bane stated that the smallsword beats the broad, but he carried a spadroon over a smallsword on his belt.
Lonnergan says that spadroon play, correctly timed, is superior to both broadsword and smallsword.
Roworth (Taylor) devotes a section of his book, dedicated otherwise to broadswords only, to the spadroon, saying it's a weapon for masters of the broad and small sword, but can be used like a broadsword.
Hope has kind words for the spadroon as well, basically bacuse it's a versatile weapon that is light to carry.
Ciao

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Postby Ty N. » 29 Mar 2006 21:46

Thanks! :)
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Postby Gerald Cavey » 30 Mar 2006 10:52

Carlo wrote: a spadroon is a light cut and thrust sword of short to medium lenght, either straight or lightly curved, single or double edged, with various possible hilt configurations, ranging from a plain knuckle bar to a dish or even basket hilt.


Cap,

It's interesting that you say the term "spadroon" can be used to describe a lightly curved sword ? In England at least by the 1760s it is reserved for a light straight sword as described in the 1786 regulations:

"...The officers of the Infantry Corps shall be provided with a strong, substantial, Uniform sword, the Blade of which is to be straight and made to cut and thrust;- to be 1 inch at least broad at the shoulder and 32 inches in length”. Public Records Office HO 50/380 and WO 3/26 p166

Do you have references where the term used to describe a light sabre or hanger /cuttoe ?

Thanks

David

PS. Ty, my website accessed from the tab below has a few (10) spadroons amongst the rest of my collection, with a variety of hilts
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Postby admin » 30 Mar 2006 10:58

David - the regulations say that, but do they call it a spadroon? I know Captain Anthony Gordon did in his treatise, so it may have commonly been known as that, I'm just wondering if the actual regualtions called it a spadroon?
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Postby Paul » 30 Mar 2006 11:00

What's the difference between a smallsword and a spadroon anyway?

Like this one:
http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/tx1192 ... pg&.src=ph

Smallswords can have a fullered, cutting blade, can't they?
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Postby admin » 30 Mar 2006 11:13

A spadroon can cut properly, a smallsword cannot (though it may be able to slice).

Some would argue that a spadroon cannot really cut properly though ;).
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Postby Gerald Cavey » 30 Mar 2006 11:27

admin wrote:David - the regulations say that, but do they call it a spadroon? I know Captain Anthony Gordon did in his treatise, so it may have commonly been known as that, I'm just wondering if the actual regualtions called it a spadroon?


No they don't Matt, but then it's a slang term corrupted from the French espadron. The same way cuttoe is a corruption of couteau (de chasse).

The regulations also are open ended, they state a minimum allowing officers to choose a heavier broad or back sword if desired. It is really only trying to make sure they carry something at least as heavy as a spadroon and stop them carrying hangers or smallswords.

Light sabres would probably have been referred to either as hangers, cuttoes or "scymeters" depending on their length and breadth.


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Postby J Marwood » 30 Mar 2006 11:32

Gerald, could you please ask David how much officers were resticted to the 'regimental sword'. For example were rifle regiment officers restricted to the rifle regiment sword?
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Postby Gerald Cavey » 30 Mar 2006 11:33

admin wrote:A spadroon can cut properly, a smallsword cannot (though it may be able to slice).

Some would argue that a spadroon cannot really cut properly though ;).


Yes but they're just wrong :D
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Postby Gerald Cavey » 30 Mar 2006 11:51

J Marwood wrote:Gerald, could you please ask David how much officers were resticted to the 'regimental sword'. For example were rifle regiment officers restricted to the rifle regiment sword?


It tends to depend on the time and regiment James. Before 1786 regiments were run as a franchise, colonels got a stipend from the government to fit out their regiment and the only thing centrally issued was the musket. The sword was usually a regimental pattern chosen by the colonel and this usually only extended to dress wear, in the field an officer carried what he chose mainly ).

After 1786 the minimum blade requirement is fixed but the only stipulation as far as the hilt was that the metal should match the uniform buttons. Only in 1796 is the hilt specified.

All well and good but officers tended to ignore the regs, and the further away from London the worse it was. The 60th Foot (Royal Americans) stationed on the Canadian border mostly and by far the largest regiment were wearing sabres by 1798 and the Experimental Rifle Corps followed suit, closely followed by Light and Gernadier companies and the Rifle Regiments.

In the end Horseguards gave up and issued the 1803 sabre description for Light companies and Grenadiers. Which didn't help much since some Regiments took it as an excuse to adopt it for all officers and others ignored it in favour of cut down or lighter 1796 Light Cavalry style sabres.

So really you only get infantry wearing the regulation sword and fighting with it with the 1822 regs.

In the Cavalry it tends to be more uniform after 1796 but there is quite a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest that at least in the Heavies Officers tended to buy the dress sword and fight with not the regulation field sword but with the troopers pattern or a light Cavalry sabre.
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Postby admin » 30 Mar 2006 12:11

I have moved this thread into a more appropriate forum due to its academic worth.
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