Peasant weapons = ?

[Ulrich von L...n]

Hungarian war scythe from 1848-1849

[bigdummy]

xxx

[Roger N]

I know these were used in Sweden as well. I'll see if I can dig up some references.

Meanwhile, I posted a short semi-article on the Swiss Chronicles here: http://www.hroarr.com/chronicon-helvetiae/

[Roger N]

And regarding the Mair stuck on fighting with "small trees". From "Chronicon Helvetiae" by Christoph Silberysen, 1574

Ms-WettF-16-3-04.jpg

If you are referring to the spiky looking thing in the back, that is a morgenstern, definitely a military weapon.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/files/dre ... 01_144.jpg

BD

Well, that was one of them. Right in front of him, a man is standing with a similar one without any spikes. I have to confess a bit of ignorance here, but aren't the morgenstern usually a bit more tooled? This one is pretty crude. Basically just a tree/branch with spikes.

[bigdummy]

The Swiss kept some in their armouries into the late 20th Century (which I have photos of but can't find online right now), which were basically just wood with spikes. I'll post later tonight when I can upload some images somewhere.

The other non-spikey one looks like just a small tree as you say. Like this one in the hands of the woodwose:



BD

[bigdummy]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Bauern.jpg



While we are putting up the 'peasant weapons', here is another example from the German peasant uprising, where you can see all the usual tools-as-weapons, in a Medieval context.

I think for context the issue is this: what you see here are 'peasants', or more likely serfs, who have already lost the right to carry arms. They are resorting to tools because they are not allowed to buy arms. Normal peasants could well afford to buy period weapons. A typical 'middle grade' peasant (called a yokel) in Poland in the late 15th early 16th Century made 20-30 florins annually on top of his subsistence needs. A florin is worth verry roughly 10-16 ounces of silver. In the same time and place a sword cost about half a mark, a crossbow about one mark, and a proofed cuirass with pauldrons cost about 1 mark. A Mark (Grivna in Poland) is very roughly 8-12 ounces of silver. Full weapons and harness for a lancer is about 22 Florins.

http://www.cpx.republika.pl/index.html
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=403582

The Osprey book on Sweden says that the Dalarna peasants and miners had won so many battles against foreign mercenaries that they had full kit like the soldiers did. Even the Wisby peasants had proper weapons and armor. The book Armaments in Medieval Poland 1350-1450 ( Uzbrojenie w Polsce średniowiecznej 1350-1450, by a guy named Andrzej Nadolski, it says that the archeological evidence and records indicate that villagers had arsenals including all the latest weapons and armor of the time.

The Czech, German and Swiss mercenaries who dominated the battlefields of Central Europe during the time of our fechtbucher were mostly either burghers or peasants, particulalry the latter. So for example speaking of the Swiss chronicles, here are the deployed militias of the Confederation for the battle of Grandson, from Diebold Schilling. The Cow you see there is the banner of Uri, a peasant canton. As you can see they are wearing plate armor and carrying pikes.



This is the Swiss militia pillaging after Grandson



You can see Uri again, the blue and white flag is Zug, another peasant canton, the all-red flag is Schwyz, another peasant canton, red and white in the back is Soluthurn. The others are the larger towns Berne (the Bear) and Zurich (blue and white diagonal)

BD

[Max C.]

On the other side of the Atlantic. The Patriots rebellion of 1837 in Canada.

[Ariella Elema]

There's a thirteenth-century poem in Old French about all the tools a well-supplied peasant should have around the house. It has a section on weapons.

Then he ought to be armed
In order to protect his land:
With a small knife and helmet,
Club and fork,
Bow and fire-hardened lance,
Thus he goes to battle;
At his bedside ought to lie
A rusty sword
So that he does not have any excuse for courage,
Nor to enact folly:
For a man is soon killed,
Either rightly or wrongly
By an arrow
(Such a deed isn’t pretty),
For a small decision;
Reason tells us this.
So let him have his old shield
Hung on the wall;
And if it is not pretty
Paint it anew.
He is not at all a strong hand,
Of that I am sure;
It ought to hang from his neck
To defend his land
But beware that he be not
At the front of the fighting,
For it would be foolishness
If he strikes the first blows,
Those which come at the beginning
If he strikes the last ones
See that he has not already lost anything;
This we know well.
He should always intend
To return in time,
If he can, to his house.

The translation is mine, original French text available here.

[Thearos]

Hungarian war scythe from 1848-1849

All these war-scythes have their blades straightened, but Mair shows guys fencing with pretty normal scythes

[bigdummy]

There's a thirteenth-century poem in Old French about all the tools a well-supplied peasant should have around the house. It has a section on weapons.

The Swedish Leidang (peasant militia) were required to have similar equipment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidang

The older laws regulating the leiðangr (the Norwegian "Older Law of the Gulating" dates to the 11th or 12th century) require every man to, as a minimum, arm himself with an axe or a sword in addition to spear and shield, and for every rowbench (typically of two men) to have a bow and 24 arrows. Later 12th-13th century changes to this law code list more extensive equipment for the more affluent freemen, with helmet, mail hauberk, shield, spear and sword being what the well-to-do farmer or burgher must bring to war.

BD

[Ulrich von L...n]

Hungarian war scythe from 1848-1849

..., but Mair shows guys fencing with pretty normal scythes

Exactly. And that is a serious problem. Let me explain:

Firstly from different sources - spanning several centuries (1514-1863) - we know how scythes were used during peasant uprisings. Usually we see some types of war scythes and only rarely the normal ones (probably depicted only as a symbol of peasantry and not an actual weapon).

Secondly as a child I had opportunities to work with scythe and sickle. My grandfather used them to cut grass for his rabbits. I would say that a normal scythe is a bad weapon indeed. Absolutely bad balance etc. If I had to choose a typical peasant weapon, I would vote for a solid steel pitchfork with 2 or 3 prongs. A formidable thing, basically 2-3 bayonets together! My grandfather's neighbour was almost killed with a pitchfork during a drunken dispute.

So honestly I don't understand why Mair depicted men "fencing" with normal scythes.