When is a backsword not a backsword?

[admin]

Reading the early English sources recently I have become confused about what exactly a backsword was... I had always read and been told that it was a single-edged sword, but most of the early English sources refer to backsword and shortsword interchangably, and the vast majority of surviving examples are double-edged until about the middle of the 17thC. So does 'backsword' actually specify a single-edged sword?

[Cutlery Penguin]

In the examples I posted up earlier the "backsword" had a false edge of somewhere between a half and a third of it's length. The "shortsword" is fully double edged to the ricasso. The hilts were very similar in design.

To be honest I think we're probably making more of an issue out of the names than they deserve. after having spoken to a number of bladesmiths about having them made it is pretty clear that having a blunt bit makes it cheaper. I suspect the same was true back then and that accounts for the difference.

[admin]

No doubt. I wonder why the name 'backsword' though and where it originated. I am unconvinced that the 'back' part of the name refers to being single-edged. It may refer to something else entirely, such as a basket hilt, or the way it was worn.

[Cutlery Penguin]

No doubt. I wonder why the name 'backsword' though and where it originated. I am unconvinced that the 'back' part of the name refers to being single-edged. It may refer to something else entirely, such as a basket hilt, or the way it was worn.

I think you could well be right, I've wondered about whether it could be related to the way it was worn too. I like the idea that it refers to the basket, perhaps about it being open at the back?

[admin]

In the early sources 'backesworde' always seems to refer to single sword, whereas they usually say 'sword and buckler'. Not sure if that is relevant, but it seems to be quite consistent.

[Motley]

What kind of time does it start getting referred to like this?

Could 'backe' have had a slightly different meaning then?

[admin]

Around the middle of the 16th century as far as I can tell (that's the earliest use of the word I can find). So it coincides with the appearance of the earliest true baskethilts (which were usually double-edged then).

'Backe' meant back. But that does not mean it didn't mean something else as well, or is a shortening of another word ('basket'?..).
The origin of fringe-use words is often very tricky. For example, Silver and other 16th century sources mention 'morris' pikes, but nobody knows whether this is derived from 'Moorish', someone's surname or something completely different.The irregular spelling of words then does not help!

[Cutlery Penguin]

Interestingly Stevie Thurson's interpretation of Ledall uses the terms forward and backward to refer to holding a bind or disengaging and countering in the manner of a rebat (if I have understood what he says properly) respectively.

If he's right it could well be that a back-sword is a sword that is used more, well in the manner a backsword is used...

[admin]

Hmm, in 1810 they considered the name backsword to be due to the single edge:

The Spanish and Scots kind, sometimes called a Back Sword, as having but one edge
: it is basket handled, and three feet two inches long.

From 'A military dictionary' by William Duane - 1810

[Stevie T]

In all honesty I don't know enough about 'backsword' or 'shortsword' systems to have even a vague clue on any techniques, so I'm just going on what I've seen on youtube etc. From this it seems that the systems don't work from the bind, ie the 'pull off' and strike to another target.

When consdered against the rapier, of which I've studied a little, this is a significant difference where many actions work from the bind and even include 'winding' in a loose sense.

So perhaps the term is used to differenciate between weapons that are used in different ways.

With my interpretation of Ledall the terms 'forwards' and 'backwards' relate to the direction in which the blade travels once blades have bound ('crossed' in the English). In other words a blade that maintains the bind and works 'behind' the opponents blade, as we would say in modern terminology, moves 'forwards'. While a blade that 'pulls off' and strikes elsewhere moves 'backwards', away from your oppentent. Systems that use the backsword seem to have little use of the back edge, and with the development of the basket meaning you can only hold the sword one way, means they loose the second edge, the new style of weapon taking the name of the system that primerily moves 'backwards'.

God, righting this on a phone isn't easy!