First European Round Kicks

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Postby Paul » 02 Apr 2006 00:32

Einar Drønnesund wrote:[But there are things that become a lot easier to do with shoes than without. For example the side kick to the knee showed in Fiore. That one would be very hard to pull off with any effectiveness in the ring, because the kicker would be barefoot, kicking at a bare, sweaty leg. Unless it hit perfectly, he kick would just slide off without doing damage. With shoes and pants, however, the sole of the shoe will "grip" the cloth, and the chance of sliding off is greatly reduced, making it a technique that is very effective in real life, but ineffective in the ring.
Hmm. Shoes in Fiore's time weren't rubber soled army boots, and pants weren't jeans.

Given the little bit I've seen of medieval shoes, I think bare feet might be a better approximation than boots or even sneakers. Perhaps modern leather soled dress shoes are the best approximation. They don't offer a lot of grip or protection.
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Postby Stunt Weasel » 02 Apr 2006 00:39

Carlo wrote:I think Savate is older than that, it should date back to 18th century.

Nope. Very early 19th century according to all the resources I've ever studied about it. That puts it into a very different place historically than, say, Fiore's abrazare or wrestling skills from other manuals contemporary to that.

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Postby Stunt Weasel » 02 Apr 2006 00:43

Re: shoes and kicking with shoes, I'd have to say that anything which makes your foot a bit more heavy can add an extra kick (no pun intended) into the kick. It can also slow your kick down somewhat. There are tradeoffs all the way down the line. I don't think that historical turnshoes would have been all that significantly different in terms of delivering power than bare feet, though.

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Postby Corporal Carrot » 02 Apr 2006 08:50

Paul wrote:
Einar Drønnesund wrote:[But there are things that become a lot easier to do with shoes than without. For example the side kick to the knee showed in Fiore. That one would be very hard to pull off with any effectiveness in the ring, because the kicker would be barefoot, kicking at a bare, sweaty leg. Unless it hit perfectly, he kick would just slide off without doing damage. With shoes and pants, however, the sole of the shoe will "grip" the cloth, and the chance of sliding off is greatly reduced, making it a technique that is very effective in real life, but ineffective in the ring.
Hmm. Shoes in Fiore's time weren't rubber soled army boots, and pants weren't jeans.

Given the little bit I've seen of medieval shoes, I think bare feet might be a better approximation than boots or even sneakers. Perhaps modern leather soled dress shoes are the best approximation. They don't offer a lot of grip or protection.


It doesnt need to be modern soles or jeans IMO. Just soft leather soles on any kind of cloth would offer a lot more friction than sweaty skin on sweaty skin, which is slippery, but in some situatuions, quite nice.
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Postby Anders Linnard » 02 Apr 2006 09:18

Jeff Gentry wrote:In the context of Fiore' most of the time they would probably be outside so i think it is more realistic they were wearing shoe's, and if you are attacked unexpectedly you will most likely have shoe's on.

Just a thought submited for your consideration.

Jeff


Yeah, it is sort of specific to fighting in a ring. Hardly a good thing to not wear shoes if you are fighting in a place where you might step on a piece of glass or something similar.

/A
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Postby Carlo » 02 Apr 2006 14:50

Mario said: Nope...



Lesson one, never be cathegoric :)


According to my informations, produced by our National Savate technical commissair, savate was first codified from a pre_existing martial art in 1784 by Michael Casseux. Then later, in 1808, again by Charles Lecour.
1784, plus the fact that the system was already in existence suggest earlier then 19th century origin.
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Postby Stunt Weasel » 02 Apr 2006 14:59

If I recall correctly and I will double check my resources later today, 1784 was the year that Michael Casseux was *born* and not the year he initiated the artform, unless he had the properties of Chuck Norris in his genes way back when ... I think the first school was set up in 1803 by Casseux, in Paris. The earlier style of foot fighting you refer to was called chausson and was supposedly more a game among sailors than a full blown martial art. :)

Cheers Carlo,

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Postby Carlo » 02 Apr 2006 16:36

If I recall correctly and I will double check my resources later today, 1784 was the year that Michael Casseux was *born*


That is indeed true.

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Postby Stunt Weasel » 03 Apr 2006 13:03

Well, there we have it then. Early 19th century.

I certainly can't help but continue to wonder about the round kick appearing earlier, but it seems that savate (and perhaps chausson in the mid to late eighteenth century) may be the earliest that the round kick showed up prominently in a particular style of western fighting. Hmmm ...

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Postby philippe willaume » 12 Apr 2006 17:17

Hello
As far as I can tell savate when it was create by casseux was already an existing style or at least is a conjunction of existing style (be it chausson or wrestling).

The idea of savate was to wear shoes when using it.
From it early day it was designed to be used in conjunction with the cane or any weapons, so originally it seems that it was not a kicking art per see but the kicking bit or a bigger art.

On the medival bit
As far as I can tell ringeck is the only to mention punch (well potential punch)
Greyff den man an mitt der lincken hand ober der gürtel, wo du wilt. Domitt stoß in mitt diner gerechten hand zugeschlossene (73 v )mitt kröfften ansin hertz. Do mitt greyff ain ringen, so es dir beste werden mag
Grab the man with the left hand above the belt, where you whish/want. At the same time with the hand appropriately (gerechten substantive form of gerechter ?) /or right hand closed/locked strike at his heart. With that grab him with a wrestling you may think is the best

Or
Der dritt mort stoß.
Greuff den man an mitt der lincken hand ob der gürtel; vnd schlach inmitt gerechten hand zu geschlossen an den schlauff, so du hertest magst;vnd domitt ain starck ringen vff din bestes.
Grab/attack the man with the left hand above the belt, and strike him with the hand appropriately (gerechten substantive form of gerechter ?)/right hand closed/locked in the temple (slaf= Schläfe) or (schluf=soft and stinky= nose or mouth ?). As hard as you can and with that wrestle strongly onto your best.

Or
Ain mort stoß.
A murder stroke
Stoß in mitt baiden fernnsten henden zu geschlossen, so du härtest magst,an den halß. Darnach ring.
Stike/move at him with the furthest of both/either hands closed, so that you may be at the hardest at the neck after that wrestle.


That is pretty much open hand strike with hand closed.
There is only the knee in the goolies in the out of armour wrestling.
In armored wrestling you can kick the knee. Front kick or side kick he does not precise. And straight kick or knee in the gonads however we are warned to be careful that he does not grab us.
One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
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