New Knight Shop Sparring Gloves

[admin]

One observation based on steel gauntlets I'll throw out there - ends of the fingers are adequately protected usually if you make sure the plates extend beyond the end of your finger, rather than ending at the same length. In other words, like having man-made uber-long fingernails.

[KeithFarrell]

A few questions:
1) you say they will be fastened with buckles. Are you meaning buckles like those commonly found on leather belts, or the snap-buckle type found on things like rucksacks?

Steel buckles found on armour. I am pretty sure quick release buckles would smash on contact with a sword. Of course there are alternatives that have not been looked into yet (buckles are not the easiest things to do up once the gauntlets are on) but we keep coming back to the original tried an tested designs.

I would have thought that traditional buckles would be problematic to do up and then to undo afterwards when you are wearing the gauntlets. A naive suggestion, presumably you have already thought about this: what about extending the cuff so that it encircles the wrist (like some traditional gauntlets) and therefore a fastening mechanism will not be needed?

2) how much protection do the gauntlets give against a heavy direct hit from a steel sword? You say the impact can be felt, but HOW uncomfortable is this? I'm particularly interested in the ability to protect against a direct hit to the wrist, to the back of hand and across the fingers.

Hard question to answer. There is the question of how uncomfortable and also ability to protect. I have every confidence in their ability to protect (against broken bones) although you can never say never. However, as with any impact, it is going to hurt. I can say that they provide better protection than my £100 lacrosse gloves and the impact is felt less. The gloves are still work in progress and we can easily add more high density foam under the plates if people find the impact too painful.

It is useful to hear that the gauntlets offer more protection than lacrosse gloves in the ~£100 range. Another question on this topic: how likely are the plastic parts to shatter upon receiving a heavy direct strike? What is the expected time-until-failure for the synthetic plates?

3) roughly how much will it cost for a kit?

Parts are cheap (injection moulded), labour for assembly is not (unless we move it to China/India which I don't want to do). Kits should come in at around half the cost of the finished gloves. Also, purchasing the assembled gauntlets without the leather gloves will be cheaper.

Fantastic, thanks. Our Academy might well be interested in a few of the gloves at some point, and it would give people an interesting task to make them up before being able to wear them. I think the kit notion is a good idea. Would any specialist tools be required for self-assembly, or just basic tools that most households should contain?

4) I will bite: how do the gloves protect against strikes to the tips and sides of fingers?

.........as well as the originals. Yet to take a full blow to the finger tip in sparring whilst wearing them. I imagine they are better than lacrosse gloves though.

One observation based on steel gauntlets I'll throw out there - ends of the fingers are adequately protected usually if you make sure the plates extend beyond the end of your finger, rather than ending at the same length. In other words, like having man-made uber-long fingernails.

I like Matt's idea of making the fingertip plate a little longer. If the glove's fingers were also that little bit longer, then a little bit of cotton wool or another type of padding could be inserted into the ends of each of the fingers just for that little bit extra protection. Coupled with the slightly longer finger tip plates, that could provide the fingertip protection that people need.

Another naive suggestion: for the pinky and index fingers, why not make the finger plates curve round to cover the exposed side of the fingers? That's a design that is not seen on traditional gauntlets, but it would address the modern safety concern.

[Dangermouse]

One observation based on steel gauntlets I'll throw out there - ends of the fingers are adequately protected usually if you make sure the plates extend beyond the end of your finger, rather than ending at the same length. In other words, like having man-made uber-long fingernails.

Yes, we came across this in the Armouries. We implemeted this on the protoytpes although some were better than others.

[Dave B]

Interesting.

My background is very much in reenactment, so I'm used to using steel with no padding under except the thickness of the glove. I completely agree that if they fit right, and the fingers are long enough, then they provide good protection. I'd wear steel more if it wasn't for the issues of accidentaly 'clipping' someone with them. Having said that, I think that steel does generaly have a bit more curve on the plates.

I'm interested that you didn't go down the wisby route of having knuckes that lap over the long finger plates both ways, I would have thought that would work well (see pics of some repros below.). Not a critisism, just a question.

http://spqr.se/web_eng/armourparts_06.shtml
As for the buckles, on my steel gauntlets, once you get the strap set to suit you, it is possible to buckle the gauntlet then wriggle your hand in and out.

In my experience it can't be tight on the cuff anyway, as the movement of the wrist then presses the ligaments against it and loosens the grip. IMHO the wrist strap on a gauntlet is just to stop the cuff flapping about, it's the grip on the weapon through the glove that really keeps the whole thing in the right place.

So I think if the buckle is done right then it won't be a big issue.

[tabiris]

If the gloves do well, and i think they will, would you consider a mitten version as well?

Also, i have to agree with keith, it would be most welcome if the sides of the fingers were protected. It does not happen often that that part gets hit, maybe in one out of fifty or sixty sparrings. But when it happens, i would much preffer to have that area covered as well. They might not be completely historically correct then, but I'd say they needn't be. In the medieval era, they made use of the resources and technologies they had, so i think we should do the same with ours - even if we drastically (and this wouldn't be that drastical) change the appearance of the gauntlets in favour of greater functionality, i say go for it!

Also, will you make that extra padding you spoke of readily available (as two types of the same model), or will you go all the way if you opt for them?

And lastly, how good is the mobility? By the picture, it seems they should be pretty unrestraining, but you can never be sure...

I appreciate the effort put into this!

[Dangermouse]

I would have thought that traditional buckles would be problematic to do up and then to undo afterwards when you are wearing the gauntlets. A naive suggestion, presumably you have already thought about this: what about extending the cuff so that it encircles the wrist (like some traditional gauntlets) and therefore a fastening mechanism will not be needed?

There are quite a few obvious solutions to certain problems we face - problem is making them financially viable. A fully enclosed cuff is a nightmare to mould and therefore very expensive to produce. Too expensive to be viable at this stage.

It is useful to hear that the gauntlets offer more protection than lacrosse gloves in the ~£100 range. Another question on this topic: how likely are the plastic parts to shatter upon receiving a heavy direct strike? What is the expected time-until-failure for the synthetic plates?

The polycarbonate is incredibly tough. The thickness we have used provides similar protection to the thickness of steel used in the originals. They should last for a very long time. We will have to use them until they start failing to get a more accurate answer.

Fantastic, thanks. Our Academy might well be interested in a few of the gloves at some point, and it would give people an interesting task to make them up before being able to wear them. I think the kit notion is a good idea. Would any specialist tools be required for self-assembly, or just basic tools that most households should contain?

A hammer would do the job however a cheap rivet setter (£10 ish) would do the job perfectly.

I like Matt's idea of making the fingertip plate a little longer. If the glove's fingers were also that little bit longer, then a little bit of cotton wool or another type of padding could be inserted into the ends of each of the fingers just for that little bit extra protection. Coupled with the slightly longer finger tip plates, that could provide the fingertip protection that people need.

The fingerplates do overshoot the end of the gloves. We can adjust these further if needed. Will post images of another prototype shortly with them featured.

Another naive suggestion: for the pinky and index fingers, why not make the finger plates curve round to cover the exposed side of the fingers? That's a design that is not seen on traditional gauntlets, but it would address the modern safety concern.

Nice idea. I will try this but it still makes me wonder why they were not a concren in the day.

[admin]

For the record, having more curved plates on the fingers is historical for the earlier gauntlets - certainly on 14thC and early-15thC gauntlets the finger plates look very curved on most of the effigies and art work (see reproduction below) - there are almost no early examples surviving to look at though, because the fingers generally fell off and got lost on the originals. The 16thC fingers look more like these plastic ones, and are flatter, but those gauntlets are a different beast, in my opinion (also made of very thin steel).

[admin]

A fully enclosed cuff is a nightmare to mould and therefore very expensive to produce.

Fully-enclosed cuffs are also a pain in the arse for longsword, because the inside of the projecting cuffs get in each other's way. I know because I own a steel pair.

[Bulot]

I have to admit, I was expecting more of a modern look for these gloves (kind of like the Lacrosse/Riot gear), but all in all, it's not a bad thing that they look more like medieval gauntlets.
It has been said a lot around here, but it never hurts to reiterate : Like the rest of us, I do expect quite a lot from these. Gloves are a major gap in the protective gear purchasable throughout the web, and I do hope that the Knight shop come up with a reliable/not-too-expensive solution to the problem. That would be great. (Bryan, if your product lives up to my expectations, your next Kir royal in Dijon will be on me )
I share Keith's concern for the protection on the side/tip of the fingers, though. We're using plastic sword, fencing and moden sports gear, so I don't think I'm going out on a limb when saying we care less about historical accuracy than practical security in terms of protective equipment.

[Dangermouse]

Here are some images of the Wisby style gauntlets we experimented with. We didn't run with them as they have to be an exact fit otherwise they are very uncomfortable. There are also more parts so to mould them is financially unviable.



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However, the fingertips we used on them sound like what you guys seem to be looking for and more importantly, are viable



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[KeithFarrell]

I would have thought that traditional buckles would be problematic to do up and then to undo afterwards when you are wearing the gauntlets. A naive suggestion, presumably you have already thought about this: what about extending the cuff so that it encircles the wrist (like some traditional gauntlets) and therefore a fastening mechanism will not be needed?

There are quite a few obvious solutions to certain problems we face - problem is making them financially viable. A fully enclosed cuff is a nightmare to mould and therefore very expensive to produce. Too expensive to be viable at this stage.

I expected that you would have thought of that idea already! Fair answer, and I certainly appreciate the effort to keep the costs down on the gauntlets.

As for the buckles, on my steel gauntlets, once you get the strap set to suit you, it is possible to buckle the gauntlet then wriggle your hand in and out.

In my experience it can't be tight on the cuff anyway, as the movement of the wrist then presses the ligaments against it and loosens the grip. IMHO the wrist strap on a gauntlet is just to stop the cuff flapping about, it's the grip on the weapon through the glove that really keeps the whole thing in the right place.

So I think if the buckle is done right then it won't be a big issue.

That's some interesting feedback on the traditional steel gauntlets. I suppose it makes sense - now that you mention it, I actually do the same thing with the straps on my own steel gauntlets!

It is useful to hear that the gauntlets offer more protection than lacrosse gloves in the ~£100 range. Another question on this topic: how likely are the plastic parts to shatter upon receiving a heavy direct strike? What is the expected time-until-failure for the synthetic plates?

The polycarbonate is incredibly tough. The thickness we have used provides similar protection to the thickness of steel used in the originals. They should last for a very long time. We will have to use them until they start failing to get a more accurate answer.

That is a very heartening answer

Another naive suggestion: for the pinky and index fingers, why not make the finger plates curve round to cover the exposed side of the fingers? That's a design that is not seen on traditional gauntlets, but it would address the modern safety concern.

Nice idea. I will try this but it still makes me wonder why they were not a concern in the day.

If you can solve this issue then I suspect people will be super-happy, since this is a constant concern in many different types of gloves. If it really is as easy as extending the plates on those fingers so that they curve round to the side then fantastic!

[admin]

Just to reiterate - plates that curved around the fingers more are perfectly historical and were found on the earlier (and better in some cases) gauntlets. I'm not surprised you didn't find many of these in the Royal Armouries though, as most of their gauntlets with fingers are 16thC.

In regard to the Wisby prototype - I can see why you moved away from those and I totally agree that this type of finger, with knuckles, has to fit well or they are a pain to wear. The type you have gone for, with many equal size scales, certainly are better for mass production - that is almost certainly why the 16thC munition armourers used the same type! I do think the plates need to be a little more curved though, and those finger-end plates on your Wisby prototype look perfect! (why did you drop those tips?)

[Dangermouse]

Just so people know - I am not bothered about the historical accuracy of the gauntlets (they are made of plastic after all ) and if we can come up with better solutions than they did back in the day that would be great.

I just keep coming back to the mindset (that I am finding hard to shake) that the guys who did this for real could have quite easily added the changes that have been suggested but they didn't (that I know of). I feel that there must be a reason for this that we don't know of otherwise it would have been prevalent across the medieval battlefields of Europe.

I am all for changing designs to ones that better serve our needs but feel that this has all been done before - 500 years ago when the stakes where somewhat higher.

[Dangermouse]

I have to admit, I was expecting more of a modern look for these gloves (kind of like the Lacrosse/Riot gear), but all in all, it's not a bad thing that they look more like medieval gauntlets.
.

The original intention was to give them a more modern look but it meant either a more expensive product or moving production to China. We had some fantastic futuristic designs drawn up (which can still be made) but keeping the cost down on the first ones we launch is our primary concern (along with a high level of protection which is also our primary concern ha ha )

Will hold you to that Kir Royale

[admin]

I just keep coming back to the mindset (that I am finding hard to shake) that the guys who did this for real could have quite easily added the changes that have been suggested but they didn't (that I know of).

But they did.

What improvements? We're just talking about curved plates and rolled ends, right? They did use those... The really high quality gauntlets of the 14th-15thC had both those features. The cheap mass-produced munition gauntlets of the 16thC did not.
Gauntlets for foot tournaments were invariably mitten gauntlets. Light fingered gauntlets of the 16thC had to permit using the reins of a horse and use of pistols etc. If we were only going to copy a historical foot combat gauntlet, then we'd be looking at 15thC style Milanese mittens or German 'Gothic' fingered gauntlets (which were sometimes mittens, and often had very curved finger lames).

[Dangermouse]

The type you have gone for, with many equal size scales, certainly are better for mass production - that is almost certainly why the 16thC munition armourers used the same type! I do think the plates need to be a little more curved though, and those finger-end plates on your Wisby prototype look perfect! (why did you drop those tips?)

I thought this as well but the noticed that the same system is used on high status gauntlets as well. Obviously there is something in this design. The wearers of the gauntlets in the picture could have afforded any configuration they wished for



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We didn't actually drop the tips, just wondered why they were not adopted in the day (given the relative ease of manufacture). I can't believe they just didn't think of this in which case I assume there is a downside. Having said that we will have to try and see

[admin]

Fairly good replicas of 15thC German gauntlets - note how the plates curve around the fingers and the ends cover the tips:



I'm not saying that all period gauntlet fingers were that well designed, but many were.

[admin]

I thought this as well but the noticed that the same system is used on high status gauntlets as well. Obviously there is something in this design.

Yes, you can find the scaled fingers on all levels of gauntlet, though we have to wonder if these gauntlets shown were intended to be used by someone in something akin to foot combats? My suspicion is that they would be hanging around somewhere posing, or directing troops, whilst the guys fighting foot combats wore something more like this:



Or this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ._1485.jpg

Or this:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3356/350 ... 65b554.jpg

It seems fairly clear, looking at the surviving armours and the period art, that fingered gauntlets were worn as a compromise to allow a mobility as well as moderate protection. Clearly the mitten gauntlets were worn for maximum protection, and these protected both the sides and the ends of the fingers.

We didn't actually drop the tips, just wondered why they were not adopted in the day (given the relative ease of manufacture).

Covered finger tips can be found on lots of gauntlets - in the case of these scales fingers I suspect that it is achieved by having the finger lames project beyond the end of the actual finger, as I surmised above.

[admin]

p.s. For blossfechten/unarmoured fencing there is very little (if any) evidence for steel gauntlets being worn - rather they wore two-fingered padded gloves in Maximillian's time (late-15th to early 16thC) and various forms of padded glove in the 18th-19th centuries. Not that this fact is necessarily relevant, other than to point out that looking at what 'they' wore on the battelfield is not necessarily a fair comparision to safety equipment for fencing bouts - either then or now. After all, in battlefield equipment you need to be able to do other things, like ride a horse or eat or look at a map or issue commands.

[Dangermouse]

It seems fairly clear, looking at the surviving armours and the period art, that fingered gauntlets were worn as a compromise to allow a mobility as well as moderate protection. Clearly the mitten gauntlets were worn for maximum protection, and these protected both the sides and the ends of the fingers.

A fair analogy for sure My research has led to similar conclusions. We were originally going to run with a mitten style gauntlet. Certainly easier to manufacture. However, the market demand is for a fingered glove. People who are already using lacrosse gloves etc would probably see going to a mitten type glove as a step backwards - certainly a hindrance (from my point of view).

You also have to bear in mind that we are not looking to produce a "tournament glove" per se, we are looking for a glove that has a good balance of protection and mobility. We have the same balance when we look at head protection. We favour the fencing mask for sparring although a (modified) close helm would provide much better protection.