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Postby admin » 28 Mar 2006 16:54

Abomination wrote:Tourneying was heavily discouraged by the church & carried with it the threat of ex-communication & not being buried in hallowed ground.


Hmm, that is earlier than our period. In the 14th-15thC there were different attitudes to it in different places - In England tournaments were generally only allowed if endorsed by the King. However, in Italy tournaments were held all over the place (probably partly because each city state was effectively its own micro-kingdom) - for this reason English and French men-at-arms travelled to Italy specifically to fight in tournaments - The Earl of Warwick is one example.
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Postby Abomination » 28 Mar 2006 16:59

admin wrote:
Abomination wrote:Tourneying was heavily discouraged by the church & carried with it the threat of ex-communication & not being buried in hallowed ground.


Hmm, that is earlier than our period. In the 14th-15thC there were different attitudes to it in different places - In England tournaments were generally only allowed if endorsed by the King. However, in Italy tournaments were held all over the place (probably partly because each city state was effectively its own micro-kingdom) - for this reason English and French men-at-arms travelled to Italy specifically to fight in tournaments - The Earl of Warwick is one example.


yep but I still think it was officially frowned upon by the church, but I think they'd kind of resigned themselves to the fact that boys will be boys by the end of the C14th.

besides I think it was becoming less common as the relative costs grew - the kit became more specialised & more expensive. So only the really rich knights or those with a patron competed.
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Postby admin » 03 Apr 2006 13:51

During the 13th and 14th centuries Dunstable was the scene of tournaments, to which a great concourse of people came and at which riots often arose. They were a convenient cloak to hide conspiracies and other unlawful purposes, and as such were repeatedly forbidden by the king. The inner significance of the prohibited tournaments of 1245, 1247 and 1265 has been explained in the article in the Political History of the county, and will therefore not be treated of here. At the tournament held in 1292 very stringent conditions were enforced; no light-armed soldier or footman was to carry anything in his hand except a small shield to ward off the snorting horses. It is no wonder that fatal accidents occurred, and the next year the annalist of Dunstable records the death at a tournament held in April of a very famous knight (whose name is not given), who was buried in the priory. During the latter part of the reign of Edward II the disturbed condition of the county made the king look with suspicion upon assemblies of armed men, and measures were taken to prevent knights from congregating together at Dunstable on the pretence of taking part in a tournament. Edward III was present at two tournaments held at Dunstable, one in 1329, when houses were prepared for the reception of him and his court, and again in 1341, when, as Holinshed says, 'there was a great juste kept by King Edward at the towne of Dunstable, with other counterfeited feats of warre, at the request of diverse young lords and gentlemen, whereat both the king and queene were present with the more part of the lords and ladies of the land.'


From: 'Parishes: Dunstable', A History of the County of Bedford: Volume 3 (1912), pp. 349-68.
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Postby admin » 03 Apr 2006 13:53

In 1273 Edward I. addressed a mandate to Abbot Bartholomew bidding him attend at Kingston on the following Monday and see to the due observance of the king's prohibition of a tournament, which it was proposed to hold on that day. If not able to go personally, he was to send the sub-prior and cellarer or two discreet monks.


From: 'House of Benedictine monks: Abbey of Chertsey', A History of the County of Surrey: Volume 2 (1967), pp. 55-64.

I like the idea of two discreet monks :D
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Postby MugginsToadwort » 07 Apr 2006 13:02

Verbruggen refers to the tournaments of the Frankish period as "dress rehearsals for war." It seems the idea of them as sport came about later, as did the Church injunctions against such activities.

Medieval warfare never appears to me as a series of set battles like Oman and Delbruck (and a host of Englishmen) seem to believe. Rather, I see it as an series of strategic moves based around controlling territories, with sieges as the focal points. Considering the Hundred Year's War, there were only 3 pitched battles, most of which were not particularly welcomed by those involved. The rest of the war consisted of raids in force and sieges. AS such, the level of actual combat involved was probably pretty small. Surviving in the rough, on little food and water, with high levels of daily activity probably served to toughen them all up.

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Postby admin » 07 Apr 2006 13:19

I agree James, except for:

MugginsToadwort wrote:Considering the Hundred Year's War, there were only 3 pitched battles


Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt?
What about Sluys, Castillon and all the others? :?:
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Postby MugginsToadwort » 07 Apr 2006 13:34

Probably should have said decisive battles, not pitched. Plenty of smaller bloody conflicts, many of which did not affect the course of the war significantly in military terms (some were extremely politically important).

Sluys is a wierd one. Yes, I suppose it is a pitched battle, but it wasn't strictly a land battle (but wasn't a naval engagement either). You could refer to it as the end of a siege, in that it signalled the breaking of the blockade of Flanders. The size of the engagement is also fairly suspect- how big were the ships, how many men etc.

Auray was a lopsided affair which Charles of Blois should never have attempted. Castillon was a classic siege encounter, with an ill-informed English commander attacked a fortified position, which earlier commanders would have simply avoided.

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Postby admin » 07 Apr 2006 14:02

He also neglected to put his armour on and rode on a donkey, because he had previously been captured and freed on the condition that he did not wear armour or ride a horse against France ever again... :roll:
At least he kept his word though, English honour and all that ;).
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Postby MugginsToadwort » 07 Apr 2006 14:50

Some of the underlings must have been wishing for the good old days under Henry V! Turmoil at home reduces interest in the continent, I believe.

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Postby Cutlery Penguin » 10 Apr 2006 13:06

How about Formigny?
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Re: My mind is wandering.

Postby Angel S. » 10 Apr 2006 15:09

scholadays wrote:Okay, okay, you know how my mind likes to wander. And today it wanders thus -

Medieval tournament fighting seemed to adhere to rules, weapons, armour and regulations that were specifically designed for their 'sporting' endevour.

So I gets to thinking, I wonder if medieval particants ever got into prissy little arguments about whether or not tournament repertoire was suffuciently 'martial'.

'Whalebone! Wood! Ha! They don't behave anything like a real sword! The balance is all wrong. Blunts! Pah! And your armour would be no use on a battlefield...

etc.


First of all it's never a good idea when your mind wanders.

Second, yes I would think they did get into prissy little fights. Men have ego issues for the most part and that's nothing new. I'm not saying it's a bad thing but we've all seen it go bad with certain people.
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