Brine gloves

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Re: Brine gloves

Postby Berki András » 16 Jun 2010 19:11

Here you go!

http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/projects/2568541#1

A looks a bit like a Kote to me.

bye

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Re: Brine gloves

Postby Scott Brown » 16 Jun 2010 19:28

András! What's up dude!? :D
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Re: Brine gloves

Postby Roger N » 16 Jun 2010 19:30

It's these gloves: http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/projects/2568541#1

A bit pricey as they are hand made:

"Price for this most advanced model is 400 euro, without stiched glove. Price with is 500 euro.
One finger model cost 250 euro."

With mass production it would surely drop. The question is how much. :)
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Re: Brine gloves

Postby Scott Brown » 16 Jun 2010 19:39

Lacrosse gear manufacturers like to change their equipment a lot primarily because they sell to institutions that are well funded. In my understanding the personal market is much smaller for them. This means that by frequently updating 'safety items' and whatnot they can constantly make mass sales to schools and colleges with deep pockets.

I contacted Brine a year or more ago and the story I was told at the time was that they had had a falling out with the company that manufactured the supercrosse but they wouldn't provide that companies name. (It all sounded a bit bitter.)

Given how they are managing their FB page I'm beginning to think Brine is managed by a bunch of immature babies which is disappointing. If they don't want the business then why not pass it along to someone else who does instead of acting like a 3 year old kid that won't share his toys? :roll: Heck, you'd think they'd pass the name along just to get the HEMA world to go away and leave them alone. For this reason alone I think we should continue to pester them. If the FB manager has to constantly monitor the page to edit all the HEMA posts then eventually it will cut into their job performance elsewhere and a higher up will hear why and take notice one way or the other. :twisted:
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Re: Brine gloves

Postby bigdummy » 16 Jun 2010 20:00

Roger N wrote:It's these gloves: http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/projects/2568541#1

A bit pricey as they are hand made:

"Price for this most advanced model is 400 euro, without stiched glove. Price with is 500 euro.
One finger model cost 250 euro."

With mass production it would surely drop. The question is how much. :)


Thanks for the link... yeah 500 Euro is about five times what we could afford for gloves. They look good though.

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Re: Brine gloves

Postby craftyfighter » 16 Jun 2010 20:40

We could take our design to Westland (they are on facebook and http://www.westlandcrafts.com/about.php), they seem to want our business unlike Brine. I know that they do padded and kevlar gloves already...maybe we can interest them in something tailored to our needs.
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Re: Brine gloves

Postby Roland Warzecha » 17 Jun 2010 13:16

The Ensifer gauntlets look interesting but I am not sure that steel and leather is the way to go.

First of all, it is so much heavier than the synthetic materials used for e.g. Lacrosse gloves.
I think it is pointless to try to get hold of training weapons with authentic weight and then put steel and thick leather onto your hands.

Secondly, I have yet to see a steel/leather gauntlet that allows for as much finger mobility as my Supercrosses. Sure, you may say they both are equally bulky, but it would be easy to improve the fit of the Lacrosse gloves. But that would be a hard task with steel and leather. Heavy duty leather will always mean a rather bulky design.

Thirdly, steel and leather gauntlets will always be more pricy by material alone. Not to mention the craftsmanship required to produce a quality pair. I would not trust neither leather tanning nor quality of seams if such an item was produced in China. And seams as sported on the ensifer gauntlets will need to be redone one day. I know this for sure by experience with comparable re-enactment gear. Any maintenance is much more labourintensive and requires skill, this goes for riveting steel finger scales as well as for any leather work.
With a $ 50,- synthetic glove, I simply plaster it up with gaffer tape when the need arises and discard it for a new pair when they are worn out after one or two years.

Also, I made the experience that steel gauntlets deflect and cushion hand shots so well, that many fencers do not acknowledge hits that they would sure feel with the Supercrosse or a comparable lighter glove. So I do appreciate the fact that these gloves protect sufficiently but do not numb your hands. If you add finger caps for thumb and little finger, like the Thomas brothers do (particularly for longsword), and if you put safety caps on the steel sword points to prevent thrusts from entering the palm or into the gaps between fingers, then you are pretty safe with a model like the Supercrosse, I think.
Again, the impact of single swords is nowhere near as critical as with longswords
But the crossguard-leather that I have put on my longsword also seems to prevent painful thumb hits. (That is not the one you see in the clip we posted but an authentic design based on a find from Holland). This combination works for me.

And finally, unlike many others I am rather opposed to any medievalish looking armour components for training unarmoured swordfighting. I don't want non-HEMA audience to confuse my safety gear with a poor substitute for period armour. Period armour sure has its place in training armoured combat but I like to have an apparently different look for gear used for unarmoured combat training. It also helps to distinguish ourselves from larp and re-enactment.

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Re: Brine gloves

Postby Cutlery Penguin » 17 Jun 2010 14:02

Roger N wrote:I believe we shouldn't really judge Brine from their Facebook page. It got ugly, but it might relate to one single person of which we know nothing + a few immature teen lax players. Let's hope for the best.


Why shouldn't we judge a company by the actions of its employees in a public forum they chose to utilise to market their products? If you walked into a shop and one of the staff told you to f*ck off you wouldn't just ignore them and wait to see if someone more friendly happened by. You'd go to a different shop.

I won't be buying Brine products and I will recommend my students don't
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Re: Brine gloves

Postby craftyfighter » 17 Jun 2010 14:09

Cutlery Penguin wrote:
Roger N wrote:I believe we shouldn't really judge Brine from their Facebook page. It got ugly, but it might relate to one single person of which we know nothing + a few immature teen lax players. Let's hope for the best.


Why shouldn't we judge a company by the actions of its employees in a public forum they chose to utilise to market their products? If you walked into a shop and one of the staff told you to f*ck off you wouldn't just ignore them and wait to see if someone more friendly happened by. You'd go to a different shop.

I won't be buying Brine products and I will recommend my students don't


Agreed, and I'm really glad that I didn't get that Brine tattoo all those years ago or I'd be trying to remove that about now.
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Re: Brine gloves

Postby Roger N » 17 Jun 2010 14:33

In part I think you are right, but it might also be a case of us speaking to the completely wrong person and I wouldn't avoid a complete brand just from a bad experience with one stupid salesman. From my work experience, even very large companies are in reality run by few, overloaded people and the web and new social medias are not what they know best. As a consequence things like Facebook may be handled a bit on the side by people with little knowledge and proper responsibilities. It's bad marketing, and in that respect you should blame the companies. On the other hand, it might not reflect the thoughts of the rest of those who make up the company or even the policies of the companies.

Also, their Facebook page appear to be more of a marketing channel, rather than a communications channel. Consequently, they are mostly interested in marketing new products, rather than discussing the past and the possible future developments on Facebook. We need to speak to market strategists instead.

Considering that we amount to at least 4% of the US LAX market (counting both the male and female lax divisions which use different gloves) this really ought to interest any manufacturer, especially since we don't care as much for looks or colour variations and would be pleased with a modified Supercrosse glove or even the Supercrosses.

I don't care for the companies one way or the other, but the Supercrosses are the best alternative I have seen. They could certainly be improved on, though. And the price is always a factor. Most do not want to spend more than 100€ on gloves, I believe.
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Re: Brine gloves

Postby bigdummy » 17 Jun 2010 16:18

Roland Warzecha wrote:The Ensifer gauntlets look interesting but I am not sure that steel and leather is the way to go.


Agreed, and well put. I think the light weight of the supercrosse is a big bonus.

But the crossguard-leather that I have put on my longsword also seems to prevent painful thumb hits. (That is not the one you see in the clip we posted but an authentic design based on a find from Holland).


Do you have a photo of this?

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Re: Brine gloves

Postby Fab » 17 Jun 2010 16:59

Roland Warzecha wrote:And finally, unlike many others I am rather opposed to any medievalish looking armour components for training unarmoured swordfighting. I don't want non-HEMA audience to confuse my safety gear with a poor substitute for period armour. Period armour sure has its place in training armoured combat but I like to have an apparently different look for gear used for unarmoured combat training. It also helps to distinguish ourselves from larp and re-enactment.


Well said Roland.
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Re: Brine gloves

Postby Berki András » 17 Jun 2010 17:42

Dear Everyone!

So I've made a bold step and asked the hungarian PBT fencing equipement maker if they would creat us gloves. Their answer was YES. They will gladly help us in our need with the hand protection problem, and with any fencing equipement we need and they are able to make. What they need is a pair of the original Supercross to take a look at it.

And here is the trick. Unfortunately I don't own any pair of these gloves. So if anyone is willing to send me a pair so I can show them, than I'll be very very grateful. A worn out is satisfying too (I think they will tear it apart anyway). If needed, I will pay the cost of the delivery.

And because here is our chance to creat a fencing glove that suits our needs I have to ask you:
What would you change in the Supercross, to make it better?

Bye

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Re: Brine gloves

Postby Motley » 17 Jun 2010 18:03

Fab wrote:
Roland Warzecha wrote:And finally, unlike many others I am rather opposed to any medievalish looking armour components for training unarmoured swordfighting. I don't want non-HEMA audience to confuse my safety gear with a poor substitute for period armour. Period armour sure has its place in training armoured combat but I like to have an apparently different look for gear used for unarmoured combat training. It also helps to distinguish ourselves from larp and re-enactment.


Well said Roland.


I kinda agree on some days, but please bare in mind that 'mismatched stormtrooper' looks crap too.

Having said that I have always thought that Hammaborg look cool and don't fall into the above category.
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Re: Brine gloves

Postby admin » 18 Jun 2010 10:07

Hi Roland, I agree with most of your points but they would have been redundant if I had explained myself better! (my fault) - What I meant to say was that I think the Ensifer design itself is perfect for what I would want. I would not however keep the same materials - I'd prefer modern materials and I think these would even improve the product and certainly make it lighter. So, the Ensifer design, but with plastic, foam and perhaps some leather on the outer skin (like a Supercross).
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Re: Brine gloves

Postby Paul B » 18 Jun 2010 18:13

Berki András wrote:Dear Everyone!

So I've made a bold step and asked the hungarian PBT fencing equipement maker if they would creat us gloves. Their answer was YES. They will gladly help us in our need with the hand protection problem, and with any fencing equipement we need and they are able to make. What they need is a pair of the original Supercross to take a look at it.

And here is the trick. Unfortunately I don't own any pair of these gloves. So if anyone is willing to send me a pair so I can show them, than I'll be very very grateful. A worn out is satisfying too (I think they will tear it apart anyway). If needed, I will pay the cost of the delivery.

And because here is our chance to creat a fencing glove that suits our needs I have to ask you:
What would you change in the Supercross, to make it better?

Bye

András


I would if I had a spare or old pair, but alas, I only have 1 pair, and they are in good condition
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Re: Brine gloves

Postby Bart Walczak » 18 Jun 2010 20:54

Ensifer's gloves are mostly styrorubber (very light, very durable). Some leather. Steel for fingers was the end result of various experiments on how to make single digits that can withstand the full force strike with feders. He experimented with various materials, plastics and other stuff. Unfortunately, the steel is what was left on the playing field.

My experience is that they provide excellent mobility, both in fingers, and in the wrist, and are light enough.

Personally I don't mind having some medieval touch to my fencing equipment, but I understand the sentiment for a different tendency.
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Re: Brine gloves

Postby Fab » 18 Jun 2010 21:06

Perhaps they'd look better* if they were all black ? :mrgreen:


* I mean, less Meedyeeeevil.
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Re: Brine gloves

Postby xn » 19 Jun 2010 02:08

I know nothing of cricket, but what of these. They're made with d3o....
http://www.pro4sport.co.uk/cricket/shopexd.asp?id=13477
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Re: Brine gloves

Postby Colin F. » 19 Jun 2010 10:20

Nope, they're hopeless.

No protection on the inside of the fingers or tips, left thumb is not protected at all.

I was wearing these at the 2 Days of the Blade competition when I got hit between the knuckles of my index and middle finger on my left hand and they did nothing to protect it.
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