The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

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Postby Nikos » 24 Aug 2009 16:51

I don't think we need huge amounts no, but I definately think some, I reckon something like the warrior tempo 2's with inserted plastic plates would be really good.
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Postby Motley » 24 Aug 2009 17:05

admin wrote:What we want are plastic gauntlets. IMO we don't need huge amounts of padding, so much as a harder shell.


I think something slimmer than a lacrosse glove is needed, when ever I look at them they seem so bulky. As Matt says a hard light shell is what is needed in inorder to distribute the force.

Some of our guys use a broomball glove for drilling

http://www.northstarsports.com/index.ph ... &parent=75

This is not enough padding on it's own but if it had a hard shell over the top then I think it might be ideal. (One of our guys uses it with some leather demi gauntlets and finger bucklers and thinks they work well, but they seem a but unwieldy to me). I keep thinking of glueing some hardened leather plates to the outside of a pair and seeing how that goes.
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Postby Fab » 24 Aug 2009 17:25

Among the other difficulties I have to take in account in this quest for the Perfect Gear®, is that French law forbids (among other silly things) groups to use, buy (and to sell, loan or give to its members) non-standard, CE-certified, protective equipment (with the exception of military/law enforcement gear), and also to alter/modify it in any way.

People can still buy/modify them individually, but it basically means no group orders for non CE stuff. It also means a huge gap for insurance to rush headlong in in case of problems.


It made a real mess for fencing clubs when this law passed, as all their equipment was outlawed overnight simply because it idn't bear the CE mark - and thet couldn't even give it away.


And it might well be that similar laws are to be found in other European countries...so I'd encoureage people to check with their local regulations and all...

Also...if a maker out there wants to create and offer HEMA-oriented protective gear, it has to bear the CE mark..
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Postby bigdummy » 24 Aug 2009 17:36

Nikos wrote:BD, the problem isn't easily fixed with those kevlar gloves at all, okay the gaps were a problem, but the actual protected areas were no where near well portected enough.


If the gaps were fixed they would be relatively effective as "light gloves" which is what they are being marketed as. They would be far more effective than Revivals other "light gloves" which provide almost no protection. It would probably also help a lot to use some denser foam but that is getting into more detail. Just closing the gaps would be a good start.

The "plastic gauntlet" type gloves would be suitible as "heavy gloves" and would be a higher price point no doubt. I think you would have to build up to that level of coverage because making them is more complex and expensive.

I think what is needed is to look at the slim line lacrosse gloves and look at inserted plastic plating sections in to them like the Brine supercrosse, and add finger tip protectors, essentially giving a slimline simplified brine supercrosse.


Look at the features of these, take them apart and evaluate / identify the materials used, define the features which make this combination work well (in your opinion) for harder simulators like nylon. Define what you want. If I had a large club like you or Matt I would have this information on our website prominently. This is what we are going to do on our website.

Whether your people have to order individually (due to some bizarre EU laws) or as a club, each of your organizations represents a quantifiable chunk of market. Give this information to the suppliers and they may surprise you.

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Postby Nikos » 24 Aug 2009 17:56

The revival kevlar gloves were actually their medium sparring gloves when they came out, they renamed them light kevlar gloves after they realised how crap they were. Closing the gaps I really don't think is the answer at all, ditiching the design completely and starting from scratch is, theres barely anything good about those gloves

And to be fair ro the light gloves, they are intended for rapier training and drilling with other heavier bladed swords, both tasks that they excell at, mine have finally died after close to three years of heavy training.

I may well look further in to developing the ideas, its always a case of finding time to really develop it.
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Postby Stevie T » 24 Aug 2009 22:49

Fab wrote:Among the other difficulties I have to take in account in this quest for the Perfect Gear®, is that French law forbids (among other silly things) groups to use, buy (and to sell, loan or give to its members) non-standard, CE-certified, protective equipment (with the exception of military/law enforcement gear), and also to alter/modify it in any way..


This is an EU reg, not specific to France.

I'm sure if you that fabulous search function that Gordon talked about, you'll find I have mentioned this before.

To produce standardised kit in any way shape or form takes alot more work than I think the retailers realise.

Though I will still be buying it!!!
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Re: The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

Postby Motley » 26 Aug 2009 17:07

Roland Warzecha wrote:
Michael Chidester wrote:
On topic, I can't recommend these highly enough (though I personally only wear gloves when sparring with blunts). They're the only gloves I've ever worn that protect your hands without encumbering them in the slightest. The palm is thin enough that you can feel your sword in your hands, which is nice. Plus, they can pull double duty if you ride, and the black ones look like Darth Vader gloves .

http://www.rideicon.com/product_details ... 32&id=8663


The gloves do in fact look cool and not as bulky as the Brines. Do you do steel sparring with them? Wouldn't steel simulators crack the fiber knuckle protectors? Happened with the Brines.


Sorry Micheal,

I don't know if you missed this but i have a similar question, do you find these enough for steel? what about with a direct blow to the thumb/fingers?
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Re: The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

Postby Frede Jensen » 26 Aug 2009 17:45

Motley wrote:
Roland Warzecha wrote:
Michael Chidester wrote:
On topic, I can't recommend these highly enough (though I personally only wear gloves when sparring with blunts). They're the only gloves I've ever worn that protect your hands without encumbering them in the slightest. The palm is thin enough that you can feel your sword in your hands, which is nice. Plus, they can pull double duty if you ride, and the black ones look like Darth Vader gloves .

http://www.rideicon.com/product_details ... 32&id=8663


The gloves do in fact look cool and not as bulky as the Brines. Do you do steel sparring with them? Wouldn't steel simulators crack the fiber knuckle protectors? Happened with the Brines.


Sorry Micheal,

I don't know if you missed this but i have a similar question, do you find these enough for steel? what about with a direct blow to the thumb/fingers?


I have some similar motorcycle gloves. Mine are from a different manufacturer but otherwise look very similar.
And they are not suficient for steel or nylons - not for full on sparring anyways. I wore them in my Martial challenge agains Dierk Hagedorn in Wienna (because I simply forgot to put on my Brines) and it resulted in a sprained thumb with the bone chipped.

Trouble with them, i find, is that they have no padding to cover the joints and that is really where you need it the most. The fibre knuckles do crack, but I think that is inevitable. They are great for drills and semi-sparring, but they don't hold up when you go all in.

I would imagine they are great for shinai though..

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Re: The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

Postby Motley » 26 Aug 2009 17:55

Frede Jensen wrote:
Motley wrote:
Roland Warzecha wrote:
Michael Chidester wrote:
On topic, I can't recommend these highly enough (though I personally only wear gloves when sparring with blunts). They're the only gloves I've ever worn that protect your hands without encumbering them in the slightest. The palm is thin enough that you can feel your sword in your hands, which is nice. Plus, they can pull double duty if you ride, and the black ones look like Darth Vader gloves .

http://www.rideicon.com/product_details ... 32&id=8663


The gloves do in fact look cool and not as bulky as the Brines. Do you do steel sparring with them? Wouldn't steel simulators crack the fiber knuckle protectors? Happened with the Brines.


Sorry Micheal,

I don't know if you missed this but i have a similar question, do you find these enough for steel? what about with a direct blow to the thumb/fingers?


I have some similar motorcycle gloves. Mine are from a different manufacturer but otherwise look very similar.
And they are not suficient for steel or nylons - not for full on sparring anyways. I wore them in my Martial challenge agains Dierk Hagedorn in Wienna (because I simply forgot to put on my Brines) and it resulted in a sprained thumb with the bone chipped.

Trouble with them, i find, is that they have no padding to cover the joints and that is really where you need it the most. The fibre knuckles do crack, but I think that is inevitable. They are great for drills and semi-sparring, but they don't hold up when you go all in.

I would imagine they are great for shinai though..

- F -


That's kind of what I was thinking.
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Re: The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

Postby admin » 21 Jan 2010 11:05

Have you guys found any new gloves recently, Nick?
http://www.antique-swords.co.uk/

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Re: The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

Postby Paul B » 21 Jan 2010 14:10

Phil at SG6 bought a pair of the timesellers new gloves. seem to be based on laccrosse gloves, and give a similar level of protection as the warrior tempo 2. slighly tighter fit on the cuff though
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Re: The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

Postby admin » 21 Jan 2010 15:30

I think for the nylons we're going to need something a bit better than the Tempo 2, unfortunately. But I may be wrong - time will tell!
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Re: The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

Postby Nuggan » 21 Jan 2010 18:35

How about inserting som plastazote inside the gloves to reinforce the existing padding?
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Re: The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

Postby admin » 22 Jan 2010 11:23

Modifying gloves isn't really an option for entire groups or the whole HEMA community. We need something off-the-shelf.
http://www.antique-swords.co.uk/

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Re: The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

Postby Bladerunner » 22 Jan 2010 12:25

It will be difficult. nobody makes gloves for HEMA.

I am trying to conceive a simple DIY solution involving sturdy gloves (work gloves, leather ones or whatever people like) stitched on foam padding and stiff leather or thermoplastic. The idea is to keep it simple, cheap and publish the pattern on this and similar forums, so people could try it and possibly improve it.

Problems start to appear if you want something mass produced, preferably with CE or some other kind of certificate.

First I don't know whether an applicable certificate exists. If not then EU penpushers would have to devise it. Question is : how much would it cost and how long would it take?

Second, someone is needed to make a design, prototypes and so on... Maybe the Knightshop guys, but they seem to have an agreement with Reebok and probably wont be interested in new investments for some time.
Getting people strange to HEMA ideas on the design will only end with total failure. Polish ARMA and associates tried it a couple of years ago. People designing riot gear have come up with something similar to Revival's light kevlar gloves. They were rejected as insufficient. Next design included mittens, but the company's interest quickly finished and the project died.
As far as I know they face the same situation now , only the standard sparring weapon in Poland is something in the class of Ensifer's feder.

Ergo:
- get HEMA people involved in the design.
- find a small manufacturer who would bother to tool up for small, infrequent orders.
- make prototypes, test them amd get the certificates.

If the product sells theres some money to be made, but someone would have to invest. I'd love to but I'm skinned at the moment and it isn't going to change in the near future. Any entrepreneurs out there?

By the way I have an impression that d3o can be obtained in sheets of two different types and in different thicknesses, then it can be cut into shape and applied to the end product. If it is so it would be worth thinking of.
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Re: The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

Postby admin » 22 Jan 2010 12:39

Bladerunner wrote:nobody makes gloves for HEMA.


That's not true, several companies make gloves for HEMA, including Flagellum Dei and Revival.
http://www.antique-swords.co.uk/

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Re: The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

Postby Fab » 22 Jan 2010 12:41

Bladerunner wrote:By the way I have an impression that d3o can be obtained in sheets of two different types and in different thicknesses, then it can be cut into shape and applied to the end product. If it is so it would be worth thinking of.


I'll be experimenting with d3o very soon. Keep you posted.
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Re: The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

Postby Andreas Engström » 22 Jan 2010 12:51

Fab wrote:I'll be experimenting with d3o very soon. Keep you posted.

That sounds very interesting, Fab. Looking forward to your report. :-)

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Re: The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

Postby Bladerunner » 22 Jan 2010 13:26

admin wrote:
Bladerunner wrote:nobody makes gloves for HEMA.


That's not true, several companies make gloves for HEMA, including Flagellum Dei and Revival.


Sorry, I have galloped to far and lost it.
Of course there are gloves made exclusively for HEMA, what I meant is that they are old outdated designs, not fit for serious sparring with nylon, letting alone blunt steel swords. Nobody seems to be improving them.

Hypothethically the Revival Light Sparring Gloves, with hard shell overlapping fingers and palm, plus something for the side of index finger, fingertips and wrist is some way to go, preferably with d3o as padding.

Anyway the HEMA gloves I have seen so far are same as riot gloves or lacrosse type gloves, so are they "proper" HEMA kit? I doubt it.
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Re: The right gloves for Nylon/plastic Sparring

Postby Stevie T » 22 Jan 2010 13:29

Looks like they're already into the LaCrosse gloves market

http://www.lax.com/lacrosse-equipment/S ... -9662.html
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