Do we have access to these treatises?

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Do we have access to these treatises?

Postby admin » 17 Apr 2009 18:24

1250 Torelli, Pomponio - Trattato De Debito ... (Italy)
1608 Beraudiere, Marc - Le combat de seul a seul en camp clos (Paris)
1619 Koppen, Joach. - Newer diskurs...Kunst des Fechtens (Magdeburg)
1633 Baldo, Camillo - Delle Mentite (Venice)
1714 Calarone, Costantino - Scienza ... della spada (Rome)
1778 Demeuse, Nicolas - Nouveau traite de l'art des armes (Liege)
1780/84 McArthur, J. - New and Complete Treatise on the Theory and Practice of Fencing (London)
1805 Antonio de Brea - Principios ... del espadin (Madrid)
1812 Craig, Robert - Rules and Regs for the Sword Exercis of the Cavalry (Baltimore)
1816 Muller, Alexandre - Theorie sur l'escrime a cheval (Paris)
1818 La Boessiere - Traite de l'Art des Armes (Paris)
1819 Cecina, Pablo - Armas contra la espada y broquel (Madrid)
1824 Potter, P. - The Infantry Exercise of the US Army (Poughkeepsie)
1830 Ghersi, Le Capitaine - Traite sur l'Art de Faire des Armes (London)
1839 Chappon - Theoretisch praktische Anleitung zur Fechtkunst (1st Hungary)
1840 Roux, W. - Anweisung zum Hiebfechten (Jena)
1842 Bartolomeo Bertolini - Trattato di scherma relativo alla spada (Trieste)
1861 Stephens, Thomas - A New System of Broad and Small Sword Exercise (Milwaukee)
1862 McClellan, G.B., - Manual of Bayonet Exercise (Philadelphia)
1862 Kelton, J.C. - A New Manual of the Bayonet (New York)
1868 Chapitre, F. - Escrime a la baionnette (Brussels)
http://www.antique-swords.co.uk/

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Re: Do we have access to these treatises?

Postby Urtica Urens » 17 Apr 2009 20:26

1805 Antonio de Brea - Principios ... del espadin (Madrid)

http://bibliotecadigitalhispanica.bne.e ... id=1628234
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Postby Nuggan » 18 Apr 2009 11:30

1780/84 McArthur, J. - New and Complete Treatise on the Theory and Practice of Fencing (London)



They are in the British Library - If you want I can get copies of them.

http://entrypoint.bl.uk/Results.aspx?qu ... Field.y=18
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Postby bigdummy » 18 Apr 2009 14:18

1250 Torelli, Pomponio - Trattato De Debito ... (Italy)

Wow what is that? 1250 AD?
"In the case of an ailing social order, the absence of an adequate diagnosis... is a crucial, perhaps decisive part of the disease." -Zygmunt Bauman

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Postby Nikos » 18 Apr 2009 14:29

bigdummy wrote:1250 Torelli, Pomponio - Trattato De Debito ... (Italy)

Wow what is that? 1250 AD?


Isn't that the manual done by two brothers, lost during the second World War, I do seem to remember reading about it some time ago.
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Postby Motley » 18 Apr 2009 15:54

Nikos wrote:
bigdummy wrote:1250 Torelli, Pomponio - Trattato De Debito ... (Italy)

Wow what is that? 1250 AD?


Isn't that the manual done by two brothers, lost during the second World War, I do seem to remember reading about it some time ago.


I was thinking that looked very interesting too...
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Postby Nuggan » 18 Apr 2009 17:23

1812 Craig, Robert - Rules and Regs for the Sword Exercis of the Cavalry (Baltimore)

Was looking for this but found these instead.
http://entrypoint.bl.uk/Results.aspx?qu ... Field.y=21

Could get copies of them aswell.


1830 Ghersi, Le Capitaine - Traite sur l'Art de Faire des Armes (London)

http://catalogue.bl.uk/F/?func=full-set ... format=999
Can get copies of this aswell.

1619 Koppen, Joach. - Newer diskurs...Kunst des Fechtens (Magdeburg)
And this aswell as
http://entrypoint.bl.uk/Results.aspx?qu ... eField.y=9

1608 Beraudiere, Marc - Le combat de seul a seul en camp clos (Paris)
And this one http://catalogue.bl.uk/F/?func=full-set ... format=999

Look I can probably get copies of all of all of them except the 1250 one.
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Postby Fab » 18 Apr 2009 17:38

Cool :)
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Postby xn » 18 Apr 2009 18:17

Trattato del debito del Cavalliero was written in 1596

See here:
http://www.italianistica.unipr.it/itali ... orelli.php
It is kept in Parma, this link appears to be an omnibus of his works.

Slightly tangental...

check this out:
http://books.google.com/books?id=_odyw8 ... t&resnum=4

same text. the entry here says 1083 for an italian manual on the sword.
http://books.google.com/books?id=_odyw8 ... ch_s&cad=0
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Postby admin » 18 Apr 2009 18:37

That last one is a mis-print, it's supposed to be 1683. 1083 would have been good though! :D

Thanks guys - the BL is not cheap to get copies from. I'll have a muse, but it's good to list where things are.

Nick, the early treatise you refer to is by the 'Del Serpente' bothers from 1295, but although Nicolle and other authors refer to it, it seems to be Chinese whispers and nobody has ever seen it... so it may just be a myth.
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Postby Nikos » 18 Apr 2009 18:50

Yeh thats sounding right now, I have read about the other somewhere, as the name is familiar, the fact I mixed the two up suggests that is was quite some time ago, shame on that if it did exist.
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Postby bigdummy » 18 Apr 2009 19:09

So what is the story about the 1250 manual then?

BD
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Postby admin » 18 Apr 2009 19:12

I don't know, that's why I'm asking here :)
I found it on a list of fencing treatises, but I've never even heard of it before.
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Postby admin » 18 Apr 2009 19:15

Ah... -
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomponio_Torelli

So it must be a mis-print, again.

EDIT - sorry XN, missed that you'd said this above already!
Last edited by admin on 18 Apr 2009 19:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby admin » 18 Apr 2009 19:16

The Torelli family were the feudal lords of Montechiarugolo in the 16th century, and the most famous was undoubtedly Pomponio, a refined man-of-letters who wrote plays, poetry and treatises. Pomponio Torelli had studied at the University of Padua and in 1568, after the death of his brothers, suddenly became the sole feudal lord of Montechiarugolo; he must have been greatly pleased to now have the noble family castle at his sole disposal as his own "confugium bonorum omnium ac litterarum asylum". He spent his time writing the play La Merope (1597), the famous Trattato del debito del Cavalliero (1596) – a treatise on the duties of a Knight
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Postby admin » 18 Apr 2009 19:18

1778 Demeuse, Nicolas - Nouveau traite de l'art des armes (Liege)>>>

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k110486p

1818 La Boessiere - Traite de l'Art des Armes (Paris)

http://books.google.fr/books?id=uLkUAAA ... =titlepage

1830 Ghersi, Le Capitaine - Traite sur l'Art de Faire des Armes (London)

http://books.google.fr/books?id=KyMPAAA ... frontcover

Thanks to HEMAC colleagues.
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Postby bigdummy » 19 Apr 2009 05:44

Thanks Matt, and thanks XN I missed that too.

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Postby steve hick » 19 Apr 2009 13:44

Nikos wrote:
bigdummy wrote:1250 Torelli, Pomponio - Trattato De Debito ... (Italy)

Wow what is that? 1250 AD?


Isn't that the manual done by two brothers, lost during the second World War, I do seem to remember reading about it some time ago.


Nikos, likely you are conflating this with the likely fabulous material of the brothers Del Serpente (Lochner lists 4 brothers) and then with the reference of Moreno's that there was a copy of the manual of Roman from Spain in the library of the British Museum. The latter is not in the BL now, and they deny ever having it. There was a discussion made at an event about 5 years ago at the Wallace that it likely was one of a number of book lost during the Blitz after being hidden away, etc., etc. I believe Matt Easton was there, as well as M. Martinez and JC -- a wonder that the sky didn't open!

Or maybe you heard something completely different, so I shared my story.

It appears the 1250 Torelli reference is due to a printer's error, as is the 1083.
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Postby steve hick » 19 Apr 2009 13:44

Nikos wrote:
bigdummy wrote:1250 Torelli, Pomponio - Trattato De Debito ... (Italy)

Wow what is that? 1250 AD?


Isn't that the manual done by two brothers, lost during the second World War, I do seem to remember reading about it some time ago.


Nikos, likely you are conflating this with the likely fabulous material of the brothers Del Serpente (Lochner lists 4 brothers) and then with the reference of Moreno's that there was a copy of the manual of Roman from Spain in the library of the British Museum. The latter is not in the BL now, and they deny ever having it. There was a discussion made at an event about 5 years ago at the Wallace that it likely was one of a number of book lost during the Blitz after being hidden away, etc., etc. I believe Matt Easton was there, as well as M. Martinez and JC -- a wonder that the sky didn't open!

Or maybe you heard something completely different, so I shared my story.

It appears the 1250 Torelli reference is due to a printer's error, as is the 1083.
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Postby Nikos » 19 Apr 2009 16:40

Yeh Matt pointed that out earlier on, I have just been mixing things up.
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