Standard Sparring/Practice Armour (Updated: with pictures)

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Postby Abomination » 20 Mar 2009 11:26

I saw Nuggans designs last night - very impressive.
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Postby Paul B » 20 Mar 2009 12:18

Nuggan wrote:
Gorget: I've been working on trying to produce single piece ones that would cut down on vunrabilities like joins and the only way so far to do this is to just have a Gorget that just covers the front. However the idea of actually incorperating it or a Bevor like piece into the main chest protection does also seem feasible.



I would strongly resist trying to make the gorget as one large piece. When fighting in armour, this is the single biggest limitation to the fight, as you can no longer move your head as well and freely as you need to.

A solution might be to protect the join with tear resistant fabric, such as Roland pointed out to me on modern fencing jackets - where there is a small turned down flap that would catch any sliding points.

Another idea would be to make it as a brigandine - many very small overlapping plates joined by fabric or leather
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Roland Warzecha » 20 Mar 2009 14:19

Paul B wrote:A solution might be to protect the join with tear resistant fabric, such as Roland pointed out to me on modern fencing jackets - where there is a small turned down flap that would catch any sliding points.


Which reminds me that I forgot to send you the according photograph.
Do you still need it?
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Postby Lyceum » 21 Mar 2009 11:09

Hardened leather?
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Postby Paul B » 21 Mar 2009 11:55

Roland Warzecha wrote:
Paul B wrote:A solution might be to protect the join with tear resistant fabric, such as Roland pointed out to me on modern fencing jackets - where there is a small turned down flap that would catch any sliding points.


Which reminds me that I forgot to send you the according photograph.
Do you still need it?


yes please :D
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Fab » 23 Mar 2009 15:02

I'd love to see new, HEMA-dedicated or simply compatible equipment on the market. However, I don't know how it is in other countries, but in case it might be the same, I'd like to warn you about what French law admits/forbids in terms of equipment.

I'm not speaking of protective equimpent purchased on an individual basis (ie people buying their own stuff, on their own), but equipment that can be bought by a group and then lent or sold to the members.

Basically, anything with a CE marking is allowed*, provided no modification is made to them (CE conformity is guaranteed by the maker). Which means we can (and we did) buy protective gear in bulk and use it. Cool, you'd say. But it also means that, unless property of this equipment is transferred to a specific user before changes are made, no modification is possible.

It also implies that, in case of shit happening, insurance companies will hide behind this to cover their arses/charge you : you were using your own, stupidly and dangerously modified/custom gear, so all the damage is your fault.


To sum things up : as a group we can't buy non-CE-marked protective gear even if it helps reducing costs for our members. Our members are allowed to use non-CE equipment, but the risks they take for themselves and their group make it difficult to allow.



So people, check your local laws.





* with the exception of enforcement/military gear ; that doesn't need CE stamps. And that's why we bought tons of these.


PS : this law is quite recent. Incidentally, it forced all fencing clubs to garbage most of their equipment as it didn't have the CE mark - and as the law forbids to give or sell them to others - and generally to buy the exact same stuff but with a new label. They were righteously annoyed, suffice to say.
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Postby Stevie T » 23 Mar 2009 15:15

I would expect it to be the same in this country also, and insurance companies will probably try to back out on the grounds that the equipment isn't made for purpose.

For your insurance to be valid they'd probably want CE labled equipment designed specifically for HEMA. Particularly if your using steel.

Funny, considering the other thread, that the only piece of kit we use that would be okay by law would be the fencing masks.
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Postby admin » 23 Mar 2009 15:30

But fencing masks and lacrosse or police gloves are not made for using with real swords or shinai, so surely there would be no legal coverage anyway?...
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Postby Nikos » 23 Mar 2009 15:33

Yeh, fact is that realistically none of what any of us are using for any weapon simulator would be covered under rules like that as we are not using it for its intended purpose, not even a fencing mask being used for shinai or rapier training would fit within that system.
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Postby Fab » 23 Mar 2009 15:35

It's really a jurisprudential situation.

Heh, this French law also means that at the time that Kendo practitionners had to stop using their stuff too, as Japanese makers sometimes didn't bother with CE markings at all - and couldn't buy replacements for the same reason...
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Postby admin » 23 Mar 2009 15:45

But if their sports insurance covered them before, then it should still cover them.
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Postby Nikos » 23 Mar 2009 15:47

Thats a real pig, would have cost a lot of people a shed load of money to buy new kit.
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Postby Stevie T » 23 Mar 2009 15:51

admin wrote:But fencing masks and lacrosse or police gloves are not made for using with real swords or shinai, so surely there would be no legal coverage anyway?...


If the mask was describe as " all weapons mask" you would be covered, but I think your right.

Although we all pay out for insurance we're probably not really covered should any of the members get seriously injured.

Might manage to use the "where reasonable and practicable" clause in the HSE legislation.

The main problem would come if the equipment failed, your insurance wouldn't cover the failing equipment, and the company who made it would argue that it was never intended to take the punishment of the use we give the product.

I had a solicitor friend of mine look through my membership form. He suggested that it be up to individuals to provide their own "appropriate" training gear and that it be their responsability to ensure it was up to standard and maintain it.

When talking to members about what to buy it's back to "I personally find X or Y is satisfactory, but you have to make your own decisions."

So no group equipment, cos if something fails then the group would be responsible, the insurance companies wouldn't pay, and therefore the group leaders would be liable and that could cost you your house and a lot of income in the future.
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Postby admin » 23 Mar 2009 16:13

Insurance does not need to depend on the equipment though. If I pick my sword up and someone trips over and falls on it then I am still insured and so are they.
You just claim on the insurance as if an accident happened (as it did), rather than trying to sue the equipment manufacturer for their equipment failing.
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Postby Nuggan » 23 Mar 2009 19:24

So is this a good or a bad thing then?

If having our own equipment/protection/armour that is actually designed for HEMA was produced and tested and tested and tested and tested..... to make sure it was worthy would it not be better and possibly safer than using stuff say like lacrosse gloves or hockey gear.
Angua: Don't worry, we won't need weapons.
Cheery: Oh, good.
Angua: They wouldn't be any use.
Cheery: Oh.
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Postby Fab » 23 Mar 2009 19:34

Nuggan wrote:So is this a good or a bad thing then?

If having our own equipment/protection/armour that is actually designed for HEMA was produced and tested and tested and tested and tested..... to make sure it was worthy would it not be better and possibly safer than using stuff say like lacrosse gloves or hockey gear.


Quite certainly !

Problem is the law being behind things.
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Postby Motley » 23 Mar 2009 19:43

Fab wrote:
Nuggan wrote:So is this a good or a bad thing then?

If having our own equipment/protection/armour that is actually designed for HEMA was produced and tested and tested and tested and tested..... to make sure it was worthy would it not be better and possibly safer than using stuff say like lacrosse gloves or hockey gear.


Quite certainly !

Problem is the law being behind things.


and the cost of it being manufactured, we are still a very small community.
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Postby Nikos » 23 Mar 2009 19:48

As well as who decides what is suitable? The Brine gloves are a prime example, lots of us love them, others hate them, same as revival sparring gloves, purpose built for HEMA, some use them, I hate them.
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Postby Motley » 23 Mar 2009 20:06

I was just wondering who decides what is acceptable for any sport, of all the specialised equipment out there how do they decide right that is good enough for us?
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Postby Nuggan » 23 Mar 2009 20:20

Okay fair enough.

I suppose ill just get one with doing my own then, if anyone else feels they like what i've done ill do some for them, or if they want something done for themselves ill do that aswell. If not they can surely find other stuff.
Last edited by Nuggan on 23 Mar 2009 20:24, edited 1 time in total.
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