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PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 17:07
by Alina
J Marwood wrote:Forthose interested in 'street' kicks - google the 'Tegner kick'. It is a bastardised Karate mae-geri, delivered with the toes. It is a staple of many modern combatives programmes.

I'd also suggest drilling a straight punt at shin or knee level. I (accidentally) tooka guy out of a class with one of these in a pressure drill a few months back. He was wearing shin pads as well :)


I beat the hell out of a guy in a full contact sparring match using only shin kicks and ba gua palm strikes.

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 17:11
by scholadays
J Marwood wrote:Just like a fencing stop-hit?

One has to be careful with using a fencing stop hit as an analogy, as the sport fencing stop hit does not actually stop anything these days.

For it is oft used as simply a hit to reach your opponent before he hits you, and thus gain priority with the straightening of your arm. Often you dont actually stop the hit upon yourself, just beat your opponent to the punch.

A proper martial stop hit would, I think, either be so early that your opponent doesn't even attack you or a stop hit in opposition where you not only advance the arm to hit but also cover yourself in the process - like a counter cut I suppose.

A kick that was used as a stop hit would actually have to stop your opponent from continuing his attack.

For example, Arash attempted such in sparring last week when I was advancing in half sword. Of course, as he didn't want to break me in two he didn't put much power into the kick and I walked right through it, toppling him to the floor and whacking him on the bonce in the process.

Thus Arash executed a 'Sport Fencing Stop Kick'.

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 17:28
by Monster Zero
That's where Bruce Lee got the term, from fencing.

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 17:32
by Monster Zero
Alina wrote:I beat the hell out of a guy in a full contact sparring match using only shin kicks and ba gua palm strikes.


Shin kicks are nasty as hell.

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 17:38
by Monster Zero
scholadays wrote:A proper martial stop hit would, I think, either be so early that your opponent doesn't even attack you or a stop hit in opposition where you not only advance the arm to hit but also cover yourself in the process - like a counter cut I suppose.

A kick that was used as a stop hit would actually have to stop your opponent from continuing his attack.


This is how it's taught in Jeet Kune Do. The kick or punch actually stops the opponents forward movement or incoming attack so it either doesn't hit you. There usually is some sort of cover involved to protect you in case you miss or the hit doesn't fully stop the attack.

Lee considered the stop hit to be the highest level of defense.

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 17:42
by scholadays
ThomJ wrote:That's where Bruce Lee got the term, from fencing.

Yeah, but was his solution not way of the intercepting fist - essentially a stop hit in opposition using the old wedge for cover?

When sport fencing I rarely saw folk execute the opposition part when executing a stop hit. They just timed their attack to just before the opponent's.

As I'm no kicker I'm not so sure how one would cover oneself whilst executing a stop kick, so perhaps one is simply either exploiting the range or genuinely simply beating one's opponent to the punch.

So, perhaps it actually does have more in common with a sport fencing stop hit after all.

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 17:46
by scholadays
ThomJ wrote:This is how it's taught in Jeet Kune Do. The kick or punch actually stops the opponents forward movement or incoming attack so it either doesn't hit you. There usually is some sort of cover involved to protect you in case you miss or the hit doesn't fully stop the attack.

Indeed, in my WT days I seem to remember the cover not as an after thought, but as a most essential part of the punch/defense itself.

For without it your just end up punching one another in the face.

Thus the punch is a cover is a punch. Thus the 'stop hit' used in this instance is perhaps more accurately called a 'stop hit in opposition'.

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 17:58
by Monster Zero
It really has to do with movement and targeting.

A stop kick to the leg of an incoming kick halts the incoming movement while also providing cover for the attack.

You can also Angle differently to avoid the incoming attach.

I'm really bad at stop kicks, but I'm usually very good with stop-punches.

When doing stop punches I typically use one hand to parry or slap aside the incoming punch while landing my own.

Stop kicks and knees are also taught in Muay Thai.

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 18:06
by scholadays
ThomJ wrote:A stop kick to the leg of an incoming kick halts the incoming movement while also providing cover for the attack.
How does the kick provide cover?

What stops a simulteneous kick from your opponent from landing?
ThomJ wrote:When doing stop punches I typically use one hand to parry or slap aside the incoming punch while landing my own.

My WT repertoire typically employed the punch itself as the cover, leaving the other hand free to hold your pint.

A most necessary function for the free hand, I'm sure you'll agree.

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 18:17
by Monster Zero
The kick is delivered to the incoming kick itself, halting the motion of the leg and preventing it from hitting you.


You can also deliver the stop kick to the support leg or to the body depending upon the type of incoming kick.

And yes, protecting one's pint is of the utmost importance.

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 18:23
by scholadays
ThomJ wrote:The kick is delivered to the incoming kick itself, halting the motion of the leg and preventing it from hitting you.

Ah, I see!
Clever old kick.
ThomJ wrote:You can also deliver the stop kick to the support leg ....

Ooya!
ThomJ wrote:And yes, protecting one's pint is of the utmost importance.

It really is the Prime Directive.

Kirk knew this.

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 21:16
by Stunt Weasel
The lovely thing about a good stop kick is that it will not only interrupt the opponent's attack and protect you, but quite often place them on the floor, since thier balance has also been destroyed quite effectively. :D

Mario

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 21:29
by Monster Zero
They also tend to snap support legs like dry kindling :twisted:

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 21:45
by Paul
J Marwood wrote:Forthose interested in 'street' kicks - google the 'Tegner kick'. It is a bastardised Karate mae-geri, delivered with the toes. It is a staple of many modern combatives programmes.
Could you provide a link with a picture?

Didn't Fairbairn advocate kicking with the inside of the foot? Like our "high-S"? Or do I remember wrong?

I'm too tired to look it up right now...

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 21:51
by Paul
ThomJ wrote:
scholadays wrote:A proper martial stop hit would, I think, either be so early that your opponent doesn't even attack you or a stop hit in opposition where you not only advance the arm to hit but also cover yourself in the process - like a counter cut I suppose.

A kick that was used as a stop hit would actually have to stop your opponent from continuing his attack.


This is how it's taught in Jeet Kune Do. The kick or punch actually stops the opponents forward movement or incoming attack so it either doesn't hit you. There usually is some sort of cover involved to protect you in case you miss or the hit doesn't fully stop the attack.

Lee considered the stop hit to be the highest level of defense.

Is Bruce Lee's idea here to stop the limb, or to stop the attacker by hitting a vital target, like the head?

In Pencak Silat Cimande, of which we practice a variant, it's the doctrine to completely destroy any limbs that may enter your "personal space" (using hand and arm techniques), not to attack the opponents vital parts. As we don't practice "classical" Cimande, we only follow this doctrine to a certain end. Both "classical" Cimande and our style employ a number of backups in case the intended defence fails, similar as JKD apparently.

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 21:58
by Monster Zero
Both actually, pretty much if the opportunity presents itself to do either, do it.

We also learn in our Silat and Kali the same limb destruction methods you talk about. We tend to work from the outside in, destroying each layer of the opponent in turn.

Destroy the limbs, destroy the balance, destroy the body.

Most of the techniques we learn in Silat go from neutralizing an incoming attack all the way through to several limb breaks.

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 22:02
by Stunt Weasel
Sounds like the kali approach. Deal with incombing limbs first then play havoc with the balance and the body after.

Edit: never mind, seems you just said that, Thom. :)

Mario

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 22:03
by Monster Zero
Technically, Kali is a type of Silat...

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 22:05
by Stunt Weasel
Yeah, but you know how much difference there is from style to style of the same bloody thing. Even two teachers of the same style of a given martial art will always teach it differently.

Mario

PostPosted: 28 Mar 2006 22:59
by Stunt Weasel
ThomJ wrote:They also tend to snap support legs like dry kindling :twisted:

When a guy of your size does them I have no doubt. :shock:

Mario