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Greek sabre and foil manual - Müller - 1847

PostPosted: 06 Jan 2014 19:52
by Ulrich von L...n
[Nichtlateinische Schriftzeichen] : Mit 15 lithogr. Tafeln. Theoretische u. praktische Anleitung zur Fechtkunst Müller, Philipp; Athen, 1847

A Greek sabre and foil manual written by a German - Philipp Müller - at the Greek Royal military academy.

http://opacplus.bsb-muenchen.de/metaopac/search?oclcno=162997774
http://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/en/fs1/object/display/bsb10431707_00113.html?rotate=0&zoom=0.5

PostPosted: 06 Jan 2014 19:55
by Ulrich von L...n
Scan No 169 (last page):

greek_169.jpg
greek_169.jpg (144.94 KiB) Viewed 7123 times

PostPosted: 06 Jan 2014 19:57
by Ulrich von L...n
Scan No 113:

greek_113.jpg
greek_113.jpg (111.89 KiB) Viewed 7123 times

PostPosted: 06 Jan 2014 20:05
by Ulrich von L...n
"Donum Ludovici II augustissimi Bavariae regis"

This digitized copy is a donation by King Ludwig II of Bavaria (1845 – 1886).
One of Ludwig's most quoted sayings was "I wish to remain an eternal enigma to myself and to others."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_II

Re:

PostPosted: 07 Jan 2014 01:47
by Charles Dobbs
Very cool! I want sabre training gear like that...

Ulrich von L...n wrote:Scan No 113:

greek_113.jpg


So... any kind Hellenic types around who want to help us out with a bit of translating?

It's, um, all Greek to me. :wink:

PostPosted: 07 Jan 2014 08:38
by Ulrich von L...n
Charles,

"I want sabre training gear like that... "

I don't want to disappoint you, but generally speaking our current, HEMA sabre fencing gear is much better (and definitely safer) than the training gear in Müller's book:

1. look at those sabres: they have nice points, presumably rigid (inflexible) blades, I wouldn't train with them; today we have reliable Regenyei sabres (eg Easton model), with rolled up points: an elegant and safe design,

2. a modern master jacket with some additional protection is also better than those separate pieces (just think of exposed armpit receiving a nice stop thrust, brrr...),

3. we have better leg protection today,

4. Müller's mask is really a fencing mask, it seems just a converted foil mask with a little added padding, more or less exposed top, sides of your head and - most important - no bib! = exposed throat, neck.

I have serious doubts that somebody will start to translate this Greek manual, there are several German manuals, available online, from that period. It would be a great surprise to find something revolutionary new in Müller's book.

Re: Greek sabre and foil manual - Müller - 1847

PostPosted: 16 Jan 2014 21:59
by andreasm
Hi

interesting book.

Otto from Wittelbach becam first King of Greek in 1832. He was the uncle from Ludwig II.
I doubt that Müller belongs to the "Königlich bairischen Hilfskorps" which was send to greek with him.
So it could be a greek version of a bavarian Army Fencingregilation.

It would be nice if someone translate it.

All the best
Andreas

PostPosted: 17 Jan 2014 06:40
by Ulrich von L...n
Andreas,

It would be interesting to know more about Philipp Müller, regardless of whether he was a member of the Bayerische Hilfskorp or not, and was invited later - let's say somewhere between 1840-1845 - to teach at the Greek Royal Military Academy.

Re: Greek sabre and foil manual - Müller - 1847

PostPosted: 02 Feb 2014 01:09
by andreasm
Hello Ulrich,

i found only a list with transfers in which a Philip Müller was transfert to the "königlich bayrische 3. Feld-Artillerie-Regiment "Königin Mutter"".
http://books.google.de/books?id=nCzOKgjh2p8C&pg=PA62&dq=Philipp+M%C3%BCller+griechenland&hl=de&sa=X&ei=g4TtUqj8DIfv4gTSqYGQCA&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Philipp%20M%C3%BCller%20griechenland&f=false
And another where a "Oberliutenant Philip Müller" becam the Ritterkreuz second class.

Hart to say if its the right Müller.

Grüße
Andreas

Re: Greek sabre and foil manual - Müller - 1847

PostPosted: 25 Sep 2014 17:02
by Yannis_Papadopoulos
Hello everyone

if enough people are interested I could look into this. Whereas I don't have the fencing/sabre knowledge to make any value judgement on the material, I do at least hold the linguistic edge (pun intended). As such I can provide a more or less "literal" translation and then maybe ask other forum members help on the more technical aspects/interpretations.

Just from a brief scan of the introduction, the author claims to have modified the "standard" method provided by Fencing Maitre F.K. Christmann by adding "various useful modifications and partial improvements". He notes that Christmann has written about fencing (ed. foyning) and sabre, the author (Mueller) will only deal with the sabre, as the easier form of armed combat. Apart from Christmann's writings, the author has also investigates other relevant good and well-known treatise.

Let me know what you think

P.S. This is my first post on this forum so apologies if I have briefed any etiquette (this has been scribbled in a rush)
P.S. I cannot commit to deadlines for the translation but it will most likely be a phased thing over the coming months.

Yannis

Re: Greek sabre and foil manual - Müller - 1847

PostPosted: 25 Sep 2014 17:54
by admin
Welcome to the forum Yannis - I think any translation would be very much appreciated - certainly Christmann's work is quite well studied in Germany and is pretty interesting and complex stuff. Very different to the British sabre material.
regards,
Matt

Re: Greek sabre and foil manual - Müller - 1847

PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016 10:25
by Yannis_Papadopoulos
Hello again. After over a year of procrastination, I have been beaten to a translation of this by my fellow countrymen: https://www.facebook.com/greeksaberbook/