Greek sabre and foil manual - Müller - 1847

(1801-1900)

Greek sabre and foil manual - Müller - 1847

Postby Ulrich von L...n » 06 Jan 2014 19:52

[Nichtlateinische Schriftzeichen] : Mit 15 lithogr. Tafeln. Theoretische u. praktische Anleitung zur Fechtkunst Müller, Philipp; Athen, 1847

A Greek sabre and foil manual written by a German - Philipp Müller - at the Greek Royal military academy.

http://opacplus.bsb-muenchen.de/metaopac/search?oclcno=162997774
http://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/en/fs1/object/display/bsb10431707_00113.html?rotate=0&zoom=0.5
Emil Barta
Nullo modo, amice.
User avatar
Ulrich von L...n
Colonel
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: 24 Nov 2011 13:05
Location: Hungary

Postby Ulrich von L...n » 06 Jan 2014 19:55

Scan No 169 (last page):

greek_169.jpg
greek_169.jpg (144.94 KiB) Viewed 7139 times
Emil Barta
Nullo modo, amice.
User avatar
Ulrich von L...n
Colonel
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: 24 Nov 2011 13:05
Location: Hungary

Postby Ulrich von L...n » 06 Jan 2014 19:57

Scan No 113:

greek_113.jpg
greek_113.jpg (111.89 KiB) Viewed 7139 times
Emil Barta
Nullo modo, amice.
User avatar
Ulrich von L...n
Colonel
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: 24 Nov 2011 13:05
Location: Hungary

Postby Ulrich von L...n » 06 Jan 2014 20:05

"Donum Ludovici II augustissimi Bavariae regis"

This digitized copy is a donation by King Ludwig II of Bavaria (1845 – 1886).
One of Ludwig's most quoted sayings was "I wish to remain an eternal enigma to myself and to others."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_II
Emil Barta
Nullo modo, amice.
User avatar
Ulrich von L...n
Colonel
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: 24 Nov 2011 13:05
Location: Hungary

Re:

Postby Charles Dobbs » 07 Jan 2014 01:47

Very cool! I want sabre training gear like that...

Ulrich von L...n wrote:Scan No 113:

greek_113.jpg


So... any kind Hellenic types around who want to help us out with a bit of translating?

It's, um, all Greek to me. :wink:
Charles Dobbs
Private
 
Posts: 28
Joined: 23 Dec 2008 17:21

Postby Ulrich von L...n » 07 Jan 2014 08:38

Charles,

"I want sabre training gear like that... "

I don't want to disappoint you, but generally speaking our current, HEMA sabre fencing gear is much better (and definitely safer) than the training gear in Müller's book:

1. look at those sabres: they have nice points, presumably rigid (inflexible) blades, I wouldn't train with them; today we have reliable Regenyei sabres (eg Easton model), with rolled up points: an elegant and safe design,

2. a modern master jacket with some additional protection is also better than those separate pieces (just think of exposed armpit receiving a nice stop thrust, brrr...),

3. we have better leg protection today,

4. Müller's mask is really a fencing mask, it seems just a converted foil mask with a little added padding, more or less exposed top, sides of your head and - most important - no bib! = exposed throat, neck.

I have serious doubts that somebody will start to translate this Greek manual, there are several German manuals, available online, from that period. It would be a great surprise to find something revolutionary new in Müller's book.
Emil Barta
Nullo modo, amice.
User avatar
Ulrich von L...n
Colonel
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: 24 Nov 2011 13:05
Location: Hungary

Re: Greek sabre and foil manual - Müller - 1847

Postby andreasm » 16 Jan 2014 21:59

Hi

interesting book.

Otto from Wittelbach becam first King of Greek in 1832. He was the uncle from Ludwig II.
I doubt that Müller belongs to the "Königlich bairischen Hilfskorps" which was send to greek with him.
So it could be a greek version of a bavarian Army Fencingregilation.

It would be nice if someone translate it.

All the best
Andreas
Member of "Ochs-Historische Kampfkünste"
and http://www.pragmatische-schriftlichkeit.de
andreasm
Corporal
 
Posts: 51
Joined: 20 Aug 2006 13:47
Location: Bavaria

Postby Ulrich von L...n » 17 Jan 2014 06:40

Andreas,

It would be interesting to know more about Philipp Müller, regardless of whether he was a member of the Bayerische Hilfskorp or not, and was invited later - let's say somewhere between 1840-1845 - to teach at the Greek Royal Military Academy.
Emil Barta
Nullo modo, amice.
User avatar
Ulrich von L...n
Colonel
 
Posts: 1379
Joined: 24 Nov 2011 13:05
Location: Hungary

Re: Greek sabre and foil manual - Müller - 1847

Postby andreasm » 02 Feb 2014 01:09

Hello Ulrich,

i found only a list with transfers in which a Philip Müller was transfert to the "königlich bayrische 3. Feld-Artillerie-Regiment "Königin Mutter"".
http://books.google.de/books?id=nCzOKgjh2p8C&pg=PA62&dq=Philipp+M%C3%BCller+griechenland&hl=de&sa=X&ei=g4TtUqj8DIfv4gTSqYGQCA&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Philipp%20M%C3%BCller%20griechenland&f=false
And another where a "Oberliutenant Philip Müller" becam the Ritterkreuz second class.

Hart to say if its the right Müller.

Grüße
Andreas
Member of "Ochs-Historische Kampfkünste"
and http://www.pragmatische-schriftlichkeit.de
andreasm
Corporal
 
Posts: 51
Joined: 20 Aug 2006 13:47
Location: Bavaria

Re: Greek sabre and foil manual - Müller - 1847

Postby Yannis_Papadopoulos » 25 Sep 2014 17:02

Hello everyone

if enough people are interested I could look into this. Whereas I don't have the fencing/sabre knowledge to make any value judgement on the material, I do at least hold the linguistic edge (pun intended). As such I can provide a more or less "literal" translation and then maybe ask other forum members help on the more technical aspects/interpretations.

Just from a brief scan of the introduction, the author claims to have modified the "standard" method provided by Fencing Maitre F.K. Christmann by adding "various useful modifications and partial improvements". He notes that Christmann has written about fencing (ed. foyning) and sabre, the author (Mueller) will only deal with the sabre, as the easier form of armed combat. Apart from Christmann's writings, the author has also investigates other relevant good and well-known treatise.

Let me know what you think

P.S. This is my first post on this forum so apologies if I have briefed any etiquette (this has been scribbled in a rush)
P.S. I cannot commit to deadlines for the translation but it will most likely be a phased thing over the coming months.

Yannis
Yannis_Papadopoulos
Cadet
 
Posts: 2
Joined: 20 Sep 2014 21:30

Re: Greek sabre and foil manual - Müller - 1847

Postby admin » 25 Sep 2014 17:54

Welcome to the forum Yannis - I think any translation would be very much appreciated - certainly Christmann's work is quite well studied in Germany and is pretty interesting and complex stuff. Very different to the British sabre material.
regards,
Matt
http://www.antique-swords.co.uk/

I like swords more than you.
User avatar
admin
Emperor
 
Posts: 35036
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 17:28
Location: Guildford, Surrey, England.

Re: Greek sabre and foil manual - Müller - 1847

Postby Yannis_Papadopoulos » 26 Feb 2016 10:25

Hello again. After over a year of procrastination, I have been beaten to a translation of this by my fellow countrymen: https://www.facebook.com/greeksaberbook/
Yannis_Papadopoulos
Cadet
 
Posts: 2
Joined: 20 Sep 2014 21:30


Return to 19thC Treatises

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest