Opinion on Ochs Video - ARMA thread

[Hans Heim]

@Fab: Leküchner rules!!!
Do you have our Langes Messer DVD? It is out now in English, I think that it will help you a lot. I tink that I got one left, if you need it, send me a privat e-mail with your adress.

@Andresa: "I'm certainly interested in what JC may have to say, but I'm not exactly holding my breath in anticipation of life-altering revelation.."

Same to me.

Hans

[Carletto]

There is valid reasoning behind keeping some of your teachings secret. It's not pretentious, just good sense now, as it was back then.

I try to spit out whatever can be communicated, for one day I may not be here to share kept secrets. There are things that i keep for myself, but because they are difficult to tell.

[admin]

I share with my students.

[scholadays]

I share with anyone foolish enough to pay me attention.

[Carletto]

I share with anyone foolish enough to pay me attention.

Me too. My cats, parents, relatives, neighbours and occasional students all know something about my swordsmanship

[Carletto]

I share with my students.

As it was done, but only with the best ones

[Richard Strey]

I also share with anyone who wants to know, that's how I got the knowledge from others, after all. And months of reading and sometimes transcribing treatises and spending quality time with my sword in a dark forest, too.
The amount of time I spend explaining things, however, varies. People who give back get more, obviously.

[Matclarke]

I also share. I don't want to fence successfully by having a bunch of tricks up my sleeve, but rather by making sound fencing decisions. I dare people to study me and try to defeat me. I'd take it as a huge personal complement if they did.

Through them finding my weaknesses, I learn them as well, and look to better myself as a fencer. If, despite knowing all my secrets they can not defeat me, then all the better for my pride.

[J. F. McBrayer]

If I knew anything, I would share it. Fortunately, I don't have to worry about such things.

[Stevie T]

I have loads of bad ideas that I willing share.

[Randall Pleasant]

Claus

What is with all of this negativity? Why another attack on ARMA. Did one of us piss on your toes? Before becoming another Troll on this thread maybe you should take the time to read what I said about the Ochs video on the ARMA Forum. I gave the video a good review while pointing out the difference in the interpretations on the video and that of JC and senior ARMA members. The main differences that I see is in how the Krump is performed and how the sword is held in Vom Tag. Pointing out differences in interpretations is not an attack on anyone. Many of us trained under Hans Heim at the 2003 ARMA International event and have a high level of respect for him and his work.

What an interesting discussion? And what is it about those Arma guys? Let them keep their religion for themselves.

Religion? That is a silly comment.
ARMA takes these arts much too serious to let any one interpretation become religion.

A comment on the "forthcoming" wonderfull new (never thought of before "Krumhau" ). If they believe that they've got somthing special here let them by all means do so. I am sure that they will eventually share it with us on their website! I am sure it will be a new and exiting thing within "their" organisation.

As I told Fab, maybe you will want to evaluate it before you dismiss it. You may find that unlike the other interpretations of Krump that we have seen and evaluated, JC's new interpretation does actually break Ochs.

It is important here to state that I do believe that the articles on ARMA's website are meant for ARMA-members and people interested in their organisation only.

Of course the articles on the ARMA website is not meant just for ARMA members. Again, that just plain silly. In addition to being a martial arts orgainization ARMA is also a public education organization with a clearly stated goal of educating the public. The articles are indeed meant for public consumption. Are articles on your web site meant only for your members? Are articles on Matt's web site meant only for his members?

Now I am confident enough in my own interpretation of the art, that a statement like this doesn't make me jump out of my chair, and I am also fairly sure that "their" "new krumhau" won't change my interpretation, but who knows?

Again, maybe as a scholar of these arts you should evaluate something before you dismiss it. If people are closed to excepting new interpretations from other people then how is the recreation of these arts to progress? When we become closed mind to each other then these arts will become just another dead science.

But I am "really" sad to hear all those people out there that feel threatened by the information that "ARMA" and JC has got a "new "interpretation of the krumhau!(according to "their" old one) Believe in your self people, if you do so, you couldn't care less about such issues, only feel slightly curious as you should be.

Read your own previous statements above. You seem to be the most threatened.

You might lean something, but then again you might not! Keep an open mind, because if you believe that you've got all aspects of the art right, then you are indeed special! (and wrong )

You should keep an open mind too. You and others should indeed stop assuming that you have everything already worked out and be open to learning from others - including ARMA.


Matt

Sorry for the tone of this message.

[Claus Sørensen]

Hello!

What is with all of this negativity? Why another attack on ARMA. Did one of us piss on your toes?

Actually I do think that I almost defended your organisation, because I am tired of everybody shouting every they hear the name ARMA! But then again if you think othervise?

Religion? That is a silly comment.
ARMA takes these arts much too serious to let any one interpretation become religion.

Must have read too many of Jeffreys posts then!

As I told Fab, maybe you will want to evaluate it before you dismiss it. You may find that unlike the other interpretations of Krump that we have seen and evaluated, JC's new interpretation does actually break Ochs.

Well yes, I actually thought that I said that one perhaps might learn something here. But then again I have absolutely no problem "breaking" Ochs But thanks again that you will enlighten us all sometime in the future!

Again, maybe as a scholar of these arts you should evaluate something before you dismiss it. If people are closed to excepting new interpretations from other people then how is the recreation of these arts to progress? When we become closed mind to each other then these arts will become just another dead science.

I do believe I said: "but who knows?" I will evaluate your interpretation when you feel that it is ready for the world. But the question is if you will accept if we don't agree or if we say that we've seen it before?

Read your own previous statements above. You seem to be the most threatened.

Hehe, do I? I said I was slightly curious!

Claus Sørensen wrote:
You might lean something, but then again you might not! Keep an open mind, because if you believe that you've got all aspects of the art right, then you are indeed special! (and wrong )

You should keep an open mind too. You and others should indeed stop assuming that you have everything already worked out and be open to learning from others - including ARMA.

Did you really read the quote you just commented?

Best wishes

Claus

[Ryan Smith]

The tone of this discussion is set by a percieved slight against everyone else's research. Also just because John comes up with a new way of looking at it does not make it the only possible correct way. It may only work in the vacuum of one group's style. I know that I learn more and tweak the way I perform different strikes more when I have the oppurtunity to use those against people from outside my normal sparring partners especially when those people study Fiore. On the weekend of October 20th there was a wonderful tournament at AEMMA where 15 people from 4 different schools had a chance to fight against every other person at least once. Everyone learned and grew in their art because they were trying their techniques outside of their vacuum/safe zone. I wish there were ARMA members at different events or that ARMA events were open to non members where we could have a meaningful dialog after having sparred. But I don't think that is allowed by the powers that be within the organization.
The religion comment was, I believe, brought up because of the orthodoxy of the followers of one man's teachings. I can't think of anyone who blindly follows Tobler's interpretations. They are used as a springboard for sure but not as the only true, martially valid way of doing things.
Rightly or wrongly many are put off by the strong words used when new interpretaions or videos are put out by ARMA such as the term "edifying" .
These sorts of misinterpretations are unfortunate but inevitable given the lack of tone, body language, and accent with the written word.

[Randall Pleasant]

Claus

Sorry if I mis-understood parts of your post.

[Claus Sørensen]

A very good post Ryan!

Best wishes

Claus

[Hans Heim]

@Randell:

Thanks for the positiv comment of our DVD. Different interpretations are fundamental in our art and also a way to push our art forward.

The only thing which is sometimes interfering is, how we as community communicate. In most times it is done over the internet in English, which is not the native language of us all.

I think that it is very hard (as we all know from the original sources) that it is very hard to describe an art which is based on movements only by words.

I think that open events are one way for an better exchange of informations about our art. But it is so expensive to travel orund the world.

Please notice that untill now only the 2 DVD´s about the Langes Schwert and the Langes Messer are made from Ochs members. The wrestling, dagger, fighting in harness are from Jirka Bürkow.

Thanks

Hans Heim

P.S.: The Langes Messer DVD is even better as the Longsword.

[Roadcone]

I share with anyone foolish enough to pay me attention.

*Fixes his attention on Scholadays*

Can I have some of your cake now?

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Ryan,

I usually try to stay out of these type of threads, but you made a couple of comments about ARMA I would like to address in what I hope is a friendly manner.

The religion comment was, I believe, brought up because of the orthodoxy of the followers of one man's teachings.

We in ARMA do not just blindly follow JC's teachings. There is a lot of argument back and fourth on each others opinions and a high amount of discussion on various teachings and techniques, not just John's. JC is a highly skilled, highly motiviated reasearcher and fencer. He is also quite bold and little brash, I happen to really like him and consider him a friend. With that said, there is frequent discussion and disagreement within ARMA about interpretations and a lot of peoples opinions and research end up being taught within the organization. For instance, look at the number of different ARMA scholars who were teaching classes at the recent ARMA international event. We were teaching our own ideas, research, and interpretations not just JC's. There has often been a lot of input into people's research in the form of review, constructive criticism, etc.

Rightly or wrongly many are put off by the strong words used when new interpretaions or videos are put out by ARMA such as the term "edifying" .

You probably have a point there, but I also believe than an organization cannot always be held to task for the rhetorique of a few of it's more outgoing and sometimes overly excitable members.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

http://www.paulushectormair.com
http://www.emerytelcom.net/users/blhunt/sales.htm

[Richard Strey]

You probably have a point there, but I also believe than an organization cannot always be held to task for the rhetorique of a few of it's more outgoing and sometimes overly excitable members.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

http://www.paulushectormair.com
http://www.emerytelcom.net/users/blhunt/sales.htm

True. I have, over the years, spoken to a number of ARMA members personally or by email and fora. I have found most of them to be earnest researchers, eloquent and simply nice people. Others seemed arrogant, were shooting platitudes from the hip like cowboys and confirmed the (mostly wrong) preconceptions "we" Europeans tend to have about Americans. As you say, this is just natural when dealing with large, heterogenous groups of people. It gets more serious, however, when it is such a group's boss or spokespeople who sound off. Where, after all, are foreigners supposed to get their impression from, if not from them?

[scholadays]

*Fixes his attention on Scholadays*

Can I have some of your cake now?

I wrote an index.
Now you can have all the cake.
In fact, I insist.
Eat!