Opinion on Ochs Video - ARMA thread

[admin]

Stevie.... be polite.

[Stevie T]

Stevie.... be polite.

I was, I smiled at the end, that makes everything Okay you know?!

[admin]

Randall is being polite, so be polite back.

[Stevie T]

Sorry Randall, I didn't mean to rude.

[scholadays]

So, just to change the topic slightly, or alternatively get us back on track, as a Scientist I find myself thinking the following - in Science there is indeed a strong motivation to engage in the ongoing race to publish first, and as a result to keep one's research to oneself until it is sufficiently mature to be published. Reputations are made or broken on this, and granting and academic fame follows reputation and success.

However, is there a motivation to do so in HEMA?

I find myself using this forum and its population as a tool to publically try and approach answers to my questions. I can currently see few reasons to keep my as yet unformed, incomplete and naieve views secret.

So, what would one's motivations be to keep such developments to oneself until they are complete? What would one's motivations be to publish first? Book/DVD sales? Recruitment? A school's competative edge? Kudos and ego? To avoid looking stupid? One-upmanship?

At HEMA's current stage of development I can not yet see any strong motivations to keep such information to onself. There is no million pound world championship prize, there are no multinationals beating down the door with money for further research, there is no huge population of potential students wondering which school to attend and using olympic sucess to inform their choice, I'm not even sure if many HEMA folk particularly care who comes up with the good ideas at all - a 'thanks mate' is about all one can surely expect at present. I can't see what there is to compete about in interpretation or what prizes await those who are suceeding in the effort?

What woudl be the advantage in retaining information within Schola?

[Carletto]

However, is there a need to do so in HEMA?

I had to withdraw two articles from the net. Possibly my reseach on the subject was not mature enough, but when is it? How do I know?
Whoever is going to blame me for that?

[Stevie T]

What woudl be the advantage in retaining information within Schola?

Stop those ARMA types publishing it first?

That was a joke, though perhaps in bad taste.

Seriously though Gordon, does your experiemnts in HEMA pay the mortgage or your experiments in commercial academia?

[scholadays]

I had to withdraw two articles from the net.

Had to?
Why did you have to?
Were you forced?

Personally I am keen upon making a virtue of leaving all my mistakes, blind alleys and stupid ideas visible.

[Stevie T]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASjH7X-jAY4

[Fab]

So, just to change the topic slightly, or alternatively get us back on track, as a Scientist I find myself thinking the following - in Science there is indeed a strong motivation to engage in the ongoing race to publish first, and as a result to keep one's research to oneself until it is sufficiently mature to be published. Reputations are made or broken on this, and granting and academic fame follows reputation and success.

However, is there a motivation to do so in HEMA?

I find myself using this forum and its population as a tool to publically try and approach answers to my questions. I can currently see few reasons to keep my as yet unformed, incomplete and naieve views secret.

So, what would one's motivations be to keep such developments to oneself until they are complete? What would one's motivations be to publish first? Book/DVD sales? Recruitment? A school's competative edge? Kudos and ego? To avoid looking stupid? One-upmanship?

At HEMA's current stage of development I can not yet see any strong motivations to keep such information to onself. There is no million pound world championship prize, there are no multinationals beating down the door with money for further research, there is no huge population of potential students wondering which school to attend and using olympic sucess to inform their choice, I'm not even sure if many HEMA folk particularly care who comes up with the good ideas at all - a 'thanks mate' is about all one can surely expect at present. I can't see what there is to compete about in interpretation or what prizes await those who are suceeding in the effort?

What woudl be the advantage in retaining information within Schola?

...unless you're trying to be an academic researcher focusing on HEMA. Which could be the case for - aerm - me.

And even then, I don't think I kept anything from anyone, quite the contrary (or if I ever do, a pint or five will get me very talkative anyways).

The only thing that would bother me, is to see someone trying to draw all the attenton to him, disminishing/negating/stealing my efforts*. For, as you said, us professional researchers have nothing to live upon but this. There are indeed untrustful and dishonest people out there for sure.





* I must also add that in this regard, the said efforts cannot be those of just one. You cannot fight alone, it looks either obscene or silly.

[scholadays]

Seriously though Gordon, does your experiemnts in HEMA pay the mortgage or your experiments in commercial academia?

Nope.

Is this the case for others?

And if so, how does not disseminating information benefit this?

[scholadays]

...unless you're trying to be an academic researcher focusing on HEMA. Which could be the case for - aerm - me.

Okay dokey, I can see that.

But publication in this sense is often a race to get new information out there.

In HEMA is there any motivation to do the opposite on occasion?

[Carletto]

I had to withdraw two articles from the net.

Had to?
Why did you have to?
Were you forced?

Personally I am keen upon making a virtue of leaving all my mistakes, blind alleys and stupid ideas visible.

I realized I changed my interpretations, I felt the informations I was giving weren't totally correct.
When I feel I have to do something, I have to do it

[Stevie T]

Seriously though Gordon, does your experiemnts in HEMA pay the mortgage or your experiments in commercial academia?

Nope.

Is this the case for others?

And if so, how does not disseminating information benefit this?

Well if I run into your office and do your days work for you, you have a nice relaxing day and still get payed.

If I run into JC's/Fab's/Tobler's office nick all their notes put them together and get the work published, I can afford a nice new pair of shoes and they are left with their old wron out trainers.

If I'm lucky I might be able to afford a pair of new socks too.

Of course if I'm even luckier I'll get daft gulible HEMA types to invite me to every event expenses paid and will have all the other daft buggers buying me drinks all weekend, defending everything I say so I never have to justify my steeling of others work.


EDIT: I'm not lobbing flowers at anyone here, I do not know of anyone who has or suspect would do such a thing.

[Paul]

Anyway at some point it will be interesting to see if the secretive closed / off groups develop a more effective and / or more historically accurate HEMA interpretation on their own than the other more mutually cooperative and open HEMA groups more willing and / or able to work together.

I suspect that one day, in a hundred years or so, the grandmaster of a closed group will come out and challenge an instructor from a more open group.

I imagine that the result will look like that black-and-white video of the two kungfu masters who couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag. Except that in this case one of them is actually good. Your choice which one that will be.

[scholadays]

I realized I changed my interpretations, I felt the informations I was giving weren't totally correct.

Okay dokay, t'was just a translation thing - 'had' made it sound like you were somehow externally forced.

However, yes, I change my mind all the time, as one will see in my journalistic efforts - but for the time being I shall leave the nonesense up there. When it becomes embarassing I shall one dark night subtly and quietly delete it...

[scholadays]

If I run into JC's/Fab's/Tobler's office nick all their notes put them together and get the work published, I can afford a nice new pair of shoes and they are left with their old wron out trainers.

If I'm lucky I might be able to afford a pair of new socks too.

Of course if I'm even luckier I'll get daft gulible HEMA types to invite me to every event expenses paid and will have all the other daft buggers buying me drinks all weekend, defending everything I say so I never have to justify my steeling of others work.


EDIT: I'm not lobbing flowers at anyone here, I do not know of anyone who has or suspect would do such a thing.

Precisely - is this an accurate description of HEMA's current development, or would it be possible to do so, is anyone doing precesely that and would they get away with it??

For example, I'm doing my absolute utmost to use all* that Matt has taught me so far, but no-one has yet invited me to anything, no one has bought me any nice shoes, my efforts would currently do little to take any food from his literal or academic table whatsoever, and if it did, it'd be bloody obvious. Wouldn't it?

Wouldn't it?

*rip off

[Anders Linnard]

Academic research is quite different from a physical movement of body and sword. It is very much possible to find and interpret the texts differently. But it's just plain silly to think you have invented a bodily movement (first one to make a joke about their lovemaking wins a beer at Swordfish). Especially if it's based on material that we are all looking at. To explain it further: you can back up your interpretation with new convincing theory and that would be cool. But it's extremely unlikely that you are doing a new movement. The third option is that you are doing a back flip and calling it krump, just to be able to claim that you are unique. But I believe that JC is a fair bit more competent than that.

/Anders

[Stevie T]

If I run into JC's/Fab's/Tobler's office nick all their notes put them together and get the work published, I can afford a nice new pair of shoes and they are left with their old wron out trainers.

If I'm lucky I might be able to afford a pair of new socks too.

Of course if I'm even luckier I'll get daft gulible HEMA types to invite me to every event expenses paid and will have all the other daft buggers buying me drinks all weekend, defending everything I say so I never have to justify my steeling of others work.


EDIT: I'm not lobbing flowers at anyone here, I do not know of anyone who has or suspect would do such a thing.

Precisely - is this an accurate description of HEMA's current development, or would it be possible to do so, is anyone doing precesely that and would they get away with it??

For example, I'm doing my absolute utmost to use all* that Matt has taught me so far, but no-one has yet invited me to anything, no one has bought me any nice shoes, my efforts would currently do little to take any food from his literal or academic table whatsoever, and if it did, it'd be bloody obvious. Wouldn't it?

Wouldn't it?

*rip off

As yet Gordon you rip Matt off to run a school in Schola's / Matts name so no problem there.

For the average work published on HEMA IMO the market is never going to be large, mainly just runs of a 500 - 1000 for a few who are interested as a practitioner or military enthusiast.

However, there is another market out there, one I tried to begin to open up. This is the academic market, not huge but bigger than HEMA, and with those combined there may be a way to make money, get funding and others.

The first thing to do is establish that the is a link between HEMA and the archaeological record - which is what I tried to do with my paper/thesis. Once this has been done then the market opens for interpretations of different treatise.

However as you knopw the academic world is ficle and wont accept texts off any Tom, Dick or Harry. It wants people with letters after their names or even better before their names, letters that mean things to academics.

People like Fab with PhD's

People from the inside.

Then there is a market, then your ideas become treasure.

As yet we're still trying to convince the world at large that HEMA is for "real", let alone a bunch of focused (narrow minded) academics.

I'm still in with a chance of opening the door, or at least helping people like Fab, but that's all the future and if you want a full copy of my thesis

Piss off!

It's my precious!

[bigdummy]

To be fair to ARMA, I know for a fact they have had many experiences with a lot of flakes, thieves, impersonators etc., with the worst kind of folks you can have to deal with in any prominent martial-arts setting.

It's difficult to find the balance between cautious enough not to have your time wasted or worse, but also open / friendly enough to get the benefits which derive from cooperation.

BD