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One-sentence Liechtenauer Meisterhau

PostPosted: 16 Mar 2006 11:59
by admin
Hi - as a Fioreist of course I have a passing interest in Liechtenauer, as a contemporary system. I've seen a lot of different teachers presenting classes on Liechtenauer (or other masters in his lineage), and I am curious to see if we can put together a one-sentence explanation for each of the meisterhau below?

I think it would really be a useful thing for students of other fencing systems to have: a brief list of the meisterhau and basically what each one does and why. As concise as possible.

Who wants to give it a try? :twisted:

Matt

PostPosted: 16 Mar 2006 12:22
by scholadays
Perhaps a list of Fiore-hau for the lichens to refer to during your task may also be of use?

PostPosted: 16 Mar 2006 12:36
by Anders Linnard
Zornhau - diagonal cut from above
Krumphau - bent strike, where the tip moves primarily over the incoming cutting angle, either hitting the hand or across the blade, the cut often has the trajectory of a windshield wiper then outwards towards the enemy
Sheitelhau - vertical cut connected to severe problems in interpretation
Schielhau - strike that crosses an incoming diagonal cut with the inverted strong of the blade and cutting down with the false edge from the opposite side from the guard you stand in, primarily used against clumsy cuts and low to middle thrusting positions.
Zwerchhau - horizontal cut where the hands are primarily kept high, but the tip may travel high or low.

Man, if anyone actually understands this, I am very surprised.

PostPosted: 16 Mar 2006 12:58
by J Marwood
After wading through a 30 post discussion on the Schielhau on the Western Arts list I think this would be an excellent idea -getting the terminolgy set really makes it easier to have fruitful discussions.

PostPosted: 16 Mar 2006 13:03
by admin
Anders that's very helpful - are there only 5?

I'm still a bit fuzzy on the schielhau.. The others are quite clear.

Could the scheitelhau simply be: a vertical cut to the head with the hands raised high so as not to be hit by a rising cut. ?

Matt

PostPosted: 16 Mar 2006 13:07
by J Marwood
That's my understanding of it after reading the western arts description. However there appears to be significant differences in the interpretations used by the various groups.

PostPosted: 16 Mar 2006 13:19
by Anders Linnard
admin wrote:Anders that's very helpful - are there only 5?

I'm still a bit fuzzy on the schielhau.. The others are quite clear.

Could the scheitelhau simply be: a vertical cut to the head with the hands raised high so as not to be hit by a rising cut. ?

Matt


Basically you inverse your hand and put the strong of the blade in the way of an incoming cut, thus making yourself very strong in the bind and letting your tip "fall" down on the opponents shoulder or head.

Regarding the sheitel I would say no, but I know a lot of people that would say yes. Problem is I have not yet met anyone who can actually perform that without getting their hands cut to pieces 9 out of 10 times. I do have an interpretation made by us and phlip phlop, but it is quite controversial. Also I suspect most translations are partially flawed regarding the sheitel, but since I don't really speak german I can't really say for sure.

My sheitel binds the upcoming sword and is aimed at the body and hands of the opponent, tip travelling downwards crossing the blade, and from there a thrust is performed from the lower hengen. the funny thing about the Ringeck Sheitel is that it ends up with a thrust to the face, but most interpreters seem to completely forget that and just performs a cut to the hands.

Well, now I have really made a mess of things. Expect an oncoming flame war :)

PostPosted: 16 Mar 2006 13:27
by Anders Linnard
There are only five cuts that are referred to as Meisterhau in later sources, but there are more cuts in the tradition. Meyer has a myriad of cuts and stances.

We teach our beginners four main guards, five main cuts + 3 unterhau, and a handful of useful positions. Additionally there are two guards being taught later on, namely shrankhut and nebenhut. The focus is on techniques from the cuts though, but that's another discussion.

/Anders

PostPosted: 16 Mar 2006 13:38
by Vive la France !
Zornhau - A downward cut delivered strongly with the sword from the shoulder, the point raised (not in line).
Krumphau - A downward cut given to one side while you step to the other one.
Sheitelhau - A downward cut given with the hands staying high
Schielhau - A downward cut given while you push aside the opponent's cut with the strong of your blade, your point always directed at him.
Zwerchhau - a (rotating) cut, who can be either downward, upward or more or less horizontal given to the advanced targets with the true edge on the left and the false on the right.

PostPosted: 16 Mar 2006 15:13
by Vive la France !
admin wrote:Could the scheitelhau simply be: a vertical cut to the head with the hands raised high so as not to be hit by a rising cut. ?

It's also my opinion

PostPosted: 31 Mar 2006 16:59
by Angel S.
admin wrote:Anders that's very helpful - are there only 5?

I'm still a bit fuzzy on the schielhau.. The others are quite clear.

Could the scheitelhau simply be: a vertical cut to the head with the hands raised high so as not to be hit by a rising cut. ?

Matt


Only 5 master strikes:

Zornhauw
Schielhauw
Krumphauw
scheitelhauw
Zwerchauw

As for scheitelhauw it's a straight scalp cut, downward from above as far as I understand it.

PostPosted: 07 Apr 2006 13:18
by MugginsToadwort
I would get away from the technical descriptions and use the following description (possibly overdoing it here, but then again, I do follow Meyer...):

Zornhaw- a simple diagonal strike from above, looking to gain an advantage enabling strikes to the upper torso

Krumphaw- a bat or beat, disguised in intent, but design to create an opening by removing the opponent's sword as a threat.

Zwerchhaw- utilising the reverse angle afforded by using the false edge to swing around the opponent's blade in a horizontal manner

Schielhau- a vertical strike using the different angle afforded by using the false edge to lever the opponent's blade strongly out of the way.

Scheitelhau- using the superior reach of the weapon to defeat a geometrically inferior strike or position.


I use these definitions as I can then use the same definitions for the messet work- the blows may be performed differently and named differently, but utilise the same principles. Some of these definitions can also be used with later weapons, i.e. a krumphaw is a beat, where one deliberately targets the opponent's blade, a scheitelhau is an overreaching motion used while slipping the leg, etc. The Zwerch and Schielhaw are peculiar to heavy weapons with false edges, but you see versions of these in Fiore.

As such, I generally teach several different versions of these techniques to be used in different situation. For instance, the Schielhau can be used in a low position against thrusts, in a superior position against a blow from above, or in a snapping motion from a bind.

Of course, this is just my take on things...

PostPosted: 12 Apr 2006 17:19
by philippe willaume
Vive la France ! wrote:
admin wrote:Could the scheitelhau simply be: a vertical cut to the head with the hands raised high so as not to be hit by a rising cut. ?

It's also my opinion


that aint working honey

PostPosted: 12 Apr 2006 17:44
by philippe willaume
Hello

Zorhn= a straight cut that starts from the shoulder (and that does not finish like any of the other four)

Crump=a strike which finish is not planar. i.e. twisted or curved

Zwerch=a Crump that is so curved that the short edge hits and stays high

Schiel= a Zwerch that finishes left instead of high.

Scheitel= a vertical strike

Which for ringeck is the starting point to break the alber. (As in strike from the long shaiteln top to bottom (not strike with or even out of)

It does breaks the alber directly in VD/lew/speyer but in those the very extended version of alber or the cut from below can be covered with a crump into the shrankhut to the hands (which is not present in ringeck) and is much more messy if it fucks up and it is hairy if the guy in alber is waiting for us.


phil


phil

PostPosted: 12 Apr 2006 19:16
by Anders Linnard
philippe willaume wrote:Hello

Zorhn= a straight cut that starts from the shoulder (and that does not finish like any of the other four)

Crump=a strike which finish is not planar. i.e. twisted or curved

Zwerch=a Crump that is so curved that the short edge hits and stays high

Schiel= a Zwerch that finishes left instead of high.

Scheitel= a vertical strike

Which for ringeck is the starting point to break the alber. (As in strike from the long shaiteln top to bottom (not strike with or even out of)

It does breaks the alber directly in VD/lew/speyer but in those the very extended version of alber or the cut from below can be covered with a crump into the shrankhut to the hands (which is not present in ringeck) and is much more messy if it poopy up and it is hairy if the guy in alber is waiting for us.


phil


phil


Zwerch tip does not necessarily stay high though, if you strike "zum pflug" (note: it's what it's called when striking at a lower opening, it's not used to strike at the guard pflug).

PostPosted: 13 Apr 2006 10:08
by philippe willaume
My view was that you keep your hands high even when you strike at the plough so it is a normal Zerch but you only deep the tip. So if you want the hands so not change position whether you strike at the ox or the plough hence the stay high.
But is should have said Zwerch=a Crump that is so curved that the short edge hits and where you hands stays high in front of you head.
Is this how you do it?
I ask that because I have played with striking at the ox and at the plough being the position you end up in when you strike the Zwerch, you being the one that strikes) a
There are really no intellectual issues (in that case the difference with the shiel would really be moving to right in the Zwerch case) with that.

However, in the case of the strike to the ox strike to the plough the other side I find it does not works as well as if you keeping your hands high because it leaves you open to a counter as you loose the connection with your opponent.
I cannot really make it work that way and I cannot see the rational for it but someone may be able to.

phil

PostPosted: 13 Apr 2006 15:07
by Anders Linnard
We keep the hands high as well.

/A

Meisterhaue & Vorbogen Haue

PostPosted: 23 Apr 2006 19:12
by Jeffrey Hull
Hello:

I fist offer you a fine article that three of my fellows created:

The Mastercuts – What They Are and What They Aren’t
http://thearma.org/essays/mastercuts.html

And to quote first paragraph thereof:

The fencing master Joachim Meyer in his Thorough Descriptions of the Knightly Art of Fencing (first published in 1570) describes five strikes called Meisterhauwen, or “Mastercuts.” Although this appears to be the first recorded use of the term it certainly isn’t the first appearance of these five core techniques of German swordsmanship: the Zornhau, Krumphau, Zwerchhau, Scheitelhau, and Schielhau. The Medieval German fencing masters of the previous century taught them as “Verbogen Haue” or “Funff Haue”, meaning the “hidden” or “secret strikes” and also “the five strikes.”


And that said, I offer you *my* translations for those strikes:

zorn = wrath

krump = crumple

zwerch = thwart

scheitel = skull

schiel = squint

Enjoy,

PostPosted: 24 Apr 2006 17:12
by Adam R
Hi all,

It is interesting to see the responses above.

First - I HATE the term Meisterhau - especially from those of us whose principal focus is on the earlier masters - the correct term is Verbogenen hauen - secret strikes (possibly not the correct spelling:))

There are so many interpretations - I'll offer my current opinions

Zornhau - a downward right blow used to clear the line by force/angulation

Krumphau - a cut delivered at an angle that crosses the line - either to the opponents blade or person

Zwerchau - A cross or lateral cut using the rotation of the wrist to intersect the opponants blade clearing the line for an attack

Schielhau - like zwerchau but with the blade in a more vertical plane - schietelhau blends into zwerchau

Schietelhau - Uberlauffen - cutting over a low attack, a high line oberhau delivered in the correct time.

Each of these techniques has a broad remit and should be regarded as types of strike rather than particular techniques in their own right.

PostPosted: 24 Apr 2006 17:59
by Jeff Gentry
Hey Adam

I also refer to them as hidden strike's i do not realy know why they started to refer to them as "master strike'" even in Ringeck he refer's to 17 principle's as "the true master strike's"


Jake Norwood on the ARMA forum made what i think is a good point he said something to the effect of think of the name's as description's of what they do,

IE krumphau=Crooked, schielhau=glance (i think this is refering to glancing your sword off the opposing blade not glancing/looking at your opponent)

Just MHO

Jeff