One-sentence Liechtenauer Meisterhau

Liechtenauer lineage and related sources (eg. Sigmund Ringeck, Peter von Danzig, Paulus Kal, Hans Talhoffer), interpretation and practice. Open to public view.

Re: One-sentence Liechtenauer Meisterhau

Postby M Wander » 13 Jun 2014 20:43

The false edge wrote:A question/remark about the Schilar/Schiller:
The high german dictionary I've found online doesn't have the word in it, but it is very close to (identical really) to the modern Dutch word schiller (as in aardappelschiller) which means peeler (potato peeler) The vertical false edge cut does seem to have a tendency to cut the side of the face like a potato..... Anybody know whether schiller is also a word for a small sharp knife used to peel vegetables? Squinter just doesn't make as much sense to me...

Interesting idea. Schäler is German for peeler, with the ä pronounced as the a in ant. I'm not sure how the German vowel pronunciation has changed since the Middle Ages, I'm better at Swedish, but that change might be possible. The sounds are produced only two steps from each other in the mouth cavity.
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Re: One-sentence Liechtenauer Meisterhau

Postby liampboyle » 21 Jan 2015 04:34

Ok, I am absolutely not challenging anybody else's interpretations, or implying that I am anything other than a Liechtenaur novice. I am doing this bit of threadomancy to clarify my own understanding.

Going to 3227a and looking at how it describes these techniques I find the following:

Czornhaw:

When you are angry and raging, then no strike is as ready as this upper strike [Oberhaw] struck from the shoulder at the opponent. That is why Liechtenauer means that when someone strikes an upper strike [Oberhaw] against you, then you shall strike a rage strike [Czornhaw] at him; that is you move quickly in towards him with your point leading.


Krumphaw
Here note that the crooked strike [Krumphaw] is an upper strike [Oberhaw] that goes out well to the side with a step, and then goes in a crooked manner to one [the other] side.


Zwerchaw/Twerhaw
Note and know that from the whole sword no strike is as good, ready and strong as the cross strike [Twerhaw]. And it goes across to both sides using both edges the foremost and the rearmost at all openings below and above. And all that comes from the roof [Dem tage], that is the upper strike [Oberhaw] or what comes from above and goes down, that the cross strike [Twerhaw] will break and defends against for you if you do the cross strike [Twerhaw] well, or if you cast the sword aslant in front of the head on whichever side you wish, just as you do when you want to get into the hangings [Hengen] or the turning [Winden]. In the cross strike [Twerhaw] you turn the flat sides of the sword, one up and one down with the point horizontal, one [edge] to the right and one to the left side.


Schilhaw
Here note and understand that the squinting strike [Schiler] is an upper strike [Oberhaw] from the right side using the back edge on the sword, which is called the left side, and it goes in a squinting way and is sent to one side with a step to the right with the sword and hand turned. And this strike breaks what the buffalo [a peasant that is] can strike from above to below, as they are wont to do.


Scheitelhawe
This is regarding the Scalp strike [Scheitelhawe] The scalp strike [Scheitelere] is a danger to your face. With its turn it takes the breast fast and what comes from him the crown [Crone] will take. Cut through the crown [Krone], that is how it is strongly broken. Press the strike in there, with cuts pull it away. The scalp strike [Scheitelhaw] I praise, if it does not come too slowly.


So if I understand all this correctly the movements would go something like this:

Zorn - strike from my upper right downward along the diagonal done with a step either forwards (offensive) or backwards (defensive) passing through long point and ending in the plow guard on the opposite side.

Krump - an oberhaw done with a wide step to the side where I cross my hands to bring my sword down either on my opponent's hand behind his guard or on the flat of his blade almost at an angle perpindicular to the line of attack.

Schiler - similar to the Krump except I am levering my sword down at an angle that catches my opponent on the head/shoulder/face with the universal sword-speak of "don't do that you blithering idiot."

Scheitelhaw - I am throwing my hands high with a snapping motion which levers my point down stating the same thing as the previous strike

Zwerch/Twerch/Twer - could almost be thought of as a transition from Ox on one side to Ox on the other side with my blade describing a large horizontal circle.

Am I completely mistaken or do I have the rough concept here?
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Re: One-sentence Liechtenauer Meisterhau

Postby KeithFarrell » 21 Jan 2015 10:17

liampboyle wrote:Am I completely mistaken or do I have the rough concept here?


It's a reasonable way to begin looking at things. You can layer nuance after nuance on top of this, but it's not a bad start.

My advice is that you shouldn't be too hasty to think of cuts ending in a guard position, for example "Zornhaw ends in Pflug" or "Zwerhaw ends in Ochs". I would say that they do NOT end in guard positions - they just look like they might. It's where all the nuances come into play ;) but it's better to start without the idea that your cuts should end in guard positions, because it will hold you back and force you to go through several incorrect interpretations that you could skip easily if you just follow the text and ignore the idea that cuts should finish in guard positions.

In my opinion, they finish wherever they need to finish in order to (A) keep you safe, and (B) hit the other guy, in that order of priority.
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Re: One-sentence Liechtenauer Meisterhau

Postby liampboyle » 21 Jan 2015 12:59

Thank you
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Re: One-sentence Liechtenauer Meisterhau

Postby tea » 21 Jan 2015 17:54

liampboyle wrote:Zwerch/Twerch/Twer - could almost be thought of as a transition from Ox on one side to Ox on the other side with my blade describing a large horizontal circle.

Am I completely mistaken or do I have the rough concept here?


The texts are generally quite clear that the Zwerhau wants to come with a good step outwards - that outward step changes the angulation and moves the centre-line, making it both much easier to get your sword across it to protect you, and much harder for their blade to protect them.

liampboyle wrote:Zorn - strike from my upper right downward along the diagonal done with a step either forwards (offensive) or backwards (defensive) passing through long point and ending in the plow guard on the opposite side.


Similarly, I find the Zornhau works much better if combined with an outwards step. If you pace backwards, you shouldn't need to do anything with the blade at all to defend yourself (and so shouldn't - instead, let their blade pass by and follow after it with your own). By stepping out, you move the centre-line, which makes it quicker and easier to get your own blade across it, and that defends you. Going forward will both a) make it quite hard to get your blade in place fast enough, as your opponent has cut first, and b) mean the measure ends up very close, and you're probably better off wrestling than binding and winding. You need to be at roughly the same range your opponent was trying to be, and the outward step gets you there nice and easy.
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Re: One-sentence Liechtenauer Meisterhau

Postby liampboyle » 21 Jan 2015 18:55

With the forward step I was thinking of a Zorn thrown in the Vor as a stand alone attack (or would that just be an Oberhaw), but then an outward step still makes better sense as the attack would come in at a more auspicious angle. Thank you.
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