One-sentence Liechtenauer Meisterhau

[Dierk Hagedorn]

What are the main methods of countering hidden strikes?

All hidden strikes are coming from above? Would the natural answer to these strikes be strikes from below or the side (rising)?

Hi Colin,

yes, the five strikes come from above. No, I wouldn't counter them from below. Or rising from the side.
I do step off-line, however. Deeply off-line at times.
Why wouldn't I counter from below you might ask. Well, there's the principle of Überlaufen which roughly says that all attacks to the upper openings break those to the lower openings. So it would be a silly thing to answer an Oberhau with an Unterhau.

The counters as I would advise them, taking into consideration what was said earlier, that the hidden strikes are a follow-up technique already (this list is not complete):
Zornhau: I have to gain superior leverage and try to conquer my opponent with winden, duplieren etc.
Krumphau: Depends on where he aims. Rising the sword or winding up into an upper hanging might do the trick.
Twerhau: Strike a Twerhau to the other side myself or fall onto his sword with an immediate thrust. Or fall under his arms.
Schielhau: Tricky. Winding or retreating. Or advancing in order to wrestle.
Scheitelhau: Rise the hilt and wind to the opponent's face.

So all the counters are - more or less - Oberhaue again - or at least actions from above, but I have to use the "Fühlen am Schwert" (feeling on the sword) in order to be victorious.

All the best
Dierk

[Randall Pleasant]

All the hidden strikes are primarily used as defensive moves, counter strikes and therefore used in the Nach.

No, a master cut can both break a guard and counter what comes from that guard. For example, the Krump can in the Vor offensively break the Ochs guard and it can in the Nach defensively counter a thrust from Ochs. Also note that there are no conditions on when a guard can be broken, such as "when they are moving into the guard", "when they are moving out of the guard", etc.

[Colin Richards]

HI Dierk,

Thanks for your input, I am trying to see what the consensus is as I have other thoughts in this area.

I think of course that you can be in the vor with hidden strikes and of course a lot will be indes, but do people really believe that? Do I?

Just a point:
Your German seems to be so much better than mine.

Have you done it long? It will be great to see you at the instructors meeting!

All the best

Col

[Colin Richards]

Hi Dierk,

Cannot all oberhaus be beaten by a correctly timed unterhau?

If not why not?

Can we not answer a sheitelhau by a rising blow from alber?

I am asking questions to try and steer people to think of the hidden strike from another angle and to help my understanding and to see how Liberi would counter each one.

In that respect I am being a bit naughty.

All the best

Col

[Dierk Hagedorn]

In that respect I am being a bit naughty.

Oh yes, please be it. It is always a big asset to look at certain certainties [!] from another point of view. Helps a lot in re-evaluating, ascertaining or abandoning portions of one own's knowledge.

Well, a lot of the techniques depend - of course - on a number of things, timing for instance. Sure.

So: Yes. I can break a Scheitelhau with a rising blow from Alber. It happens. But it is not what I would teach as gospel truth. Precisely this example seems to lead to frequent "sniping" and might be considered as risky. For one's head. For one's blade.
Randall has put it very nicely when he stressed the importance of angles. So the important thing is not necessarily what might be a solution in a particular combat situation but what do I advise people to do - and to train. To remain with the example: I'd rather counter a Scheitelhau with a Twerhau than with an Unterhau. The first puts me (and my sword) in a favourable position: If done correctly I hit the flat of his blade with my edge, thus gaining superior leverage. Everything else is only secondary. I don't say it can't be done. But I do say there's a better way.

I think of course that you can be in the vor with hidden strikes

You can. But you don't need to be.

And yes, I'm overwhelmed with joy to participate in this year's instructors meeting.

All the best
Dierk

[Claus Sørensen]

Hello Dierk!

Why wouldn't I counter from below you might ask. Well, there's the principle of Überlaufen which roughly says that all attacks to the upper openings break those to the lower openings. So it would be a silly thing to answer an Oberhau with an Unterhau.

My view upon this is is a little different! If you want to attack someone striking an overhau against you with a unterhau(Strike from below) it is all right to do so! It is the target that is important here, not if you strike upwards or downwards! You choose a target that will not allow your opponent to use überlaufen on you, but this can be done with an upwards strike also:

Ringeck:

vnnd ainer hawet uff dich oben nider so streych von unden uff vast in sin schwert mitt der kurtzen schniden. Second comment on the "nebenhut"

Best wishes

Claus

[Og]

For what I know about the german school the master cuts or meisterhau where not supposed to be performed only with the sword but with the legs too, this means that the main trick of this is done by the steps we perform, mainly diagonal steps.

For the Zornhau - Step out diagonally and cut from an oberhau (descending cut), this cut is directed to cut/thrust the face, there is a variant for this named Zornört, that is that is the same but insteda a cut is a thrust.

Kurmphau, step out in diagonal but this step is larger than the one done in the zonrhau, the cut is not an overhau even when is a descendent cut, this one is perform from a superior guard as 'ochs' (pretty similar to the posta di fenestra but a little higher), the main thatget from this are the arms (that are atacking or defending from a high guard) or the head.

Sheitelhau, this one is one from the easiers, it's target is the top of the head, this one is used when the opponent uses an upper guard as 'kron' to protect his head,as the same as krumphau; comes form a high guard up the head and the point of the sword hits the others head, this cut is not really a big deal but when is done well the blood in the face it's too much to allow the opponents to see.

Schielhau, many friends and I have a lot of hours of discussion with this hew, since the description says "to cut the opposite shoulder with the short edge", accordling to Liechtenahuer, Ringek said the same but instead the shoulder is the face. Once the shords are crossed (if they're crossed) you just need to bind your swort and change it from your long edge to your short edge, that way the point of your sword will be pointing your opponent, after that, is only matter to thrust your sword... hehe.

Zwerchhau, this one is one of my favorites, specially using the 'german grip', this one it's one of the most characteristics hews from the german school, need to step a side and with the sword up to your head, hit the opponents head (head, eye, ear, neck, ribs, arm... all that is at the side you just moved) horizontally with your short wdge (if you moved to the right).

These may be used while indes, vor or nach, you decide when to use them accodling to your strategy, I'll try to upload some pictures of these hews to be more clear.

Regards.

[Andreas Engström]

@Og: Well, just about every single action in every fencing system devised relies at least in part on the correct footwork.. this is nothing that is unique to the verborgene hawe.

I agree with your description of the zornhaw.

There is really nothing that says that a krump must be made from a "superior" guard (I guess you mean an upper guard?). The krump kan be made from any guard. Many masters describe the extremely powerful krump that can be done from a low right schrankhut. And my personal opinion would be that ochs probably is one of the hardest guards to perform a powerful krump from. Also, I wonder why you would say that it's not an oberhau. An oberhau comes from above, the krump comes from above. It's perhaps not a typical oberhau, but surely it is an oberhau?

Schaytelhaw usually has the head as a target, true, but that is not part of the definition of it and the schaytler can be aimed at many other targets as well. I don't know what you mean by "when the opponent uses an upper guard as 'kron' to protect his head,as the same as krumphau".

I don't think? (counter-examples, anyone?) any master tells you to do the schiel with the long edge and then wind to the short after you bind. Yes, of course you can do this, but in that case you're doing a schielhaw from the bind, as a follow-up to a failed zorn or similar. That is, the first part of your action isn't part of the schielhaw. This is also a recommended followup to a krumphaw to the sword ("weaken the master").

But when you make a schiel from zufechten you usually strike immediately with the short edge, this is much faster. I would recommend using the thumb grip to give stability in the bind that follows.

-Andreas

[Harry]

Schielhau: Tricky. Winding or retreating. Or advancing in order to wrestle.

For me the best "counter" against the schiller = "verhängen" to the right, step to the left, oberhau from the left and maybe a duplieren if necassary