Parring in Liechtenaure

Liechtenauer lineage and related sources (eg. Sigmund Ringeck, Peter von Danzig, Paulus Kal, Hans Talhoffer), interpretation and practice. Open to public view.

Parring in Liechtenaure

Postby Neuro » 18 May 2016 16:24

Well farly new to hema, this is my first post in the forum, first of all sorry if this has already been discus couldn't find about it.

As far as I have read all of Liechty related teachings are "especial" lessons, more like a kind of filosophy on what things to do or not to do, never the less he mention parring often in his teachings so I figure that first of all we should study "normal" cuttings and parrings and stances so then move to learn the "special" lichty stuff but could not find any german treatises that explain about it, so my question is were can I learn this? should I do fiores guards first? (seems kind of awkward since it would feel that I'll been mixing to diferent masters far away from each other)

Regards Neuro

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Re: Parring in Liechtenaure

Postby Lidsman » 19 May 2016 07:13

Welcome to the Forum brother. I Think that there are more competent members than I who should answer this question, but as far as I know we no sources concerning the "normal" German longsword fencing. All we have is Lichtenauer (and his followers). Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Parring in Liechtenaure

Postby KeithFarrell » 19 May 2016 18:20

Unfortunately, there's not much written material connected with the Liechtenauer tradition that discusses "common fencing", or how to do it - at least, not in a clear and beginner-friendly fashion! Once you know a lot more about Liechtenauer's method, and improve as a fencer, you will be able to see the hints and suggestions in the various sources that might let you put together an interpretation of common fencing, but it's not really available in an accessible fashion.

I definitely think it is worth beginning your studies by learning a "common fencing" method as opposed to diving straight into something complicated like the 15th century Liechtenauer material, and perhaps one of the best ways of doing that is by practising your ability to perform your various different cuts and strikes from both sides, from above and from below (so that you can call upon nice simple but effective strikes during sparring), and to work hard at improving your *point up* parrying skills. Sure, you could work with the Ochs, or with a point down hanging guard kind of position, but you will become a lot better, faster (and with fewer broken fingers!), if you work on your parrying skills with point up in the air.
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Re: Parring in Liechtenaure

Postby Neuro » 20 May 2016 01:33

Welcome to the Forum brother

Thx for the welcoming lidsman.

I definitely think it is worth beginning your studies by learning a "common fencing" method as opposed to diving straight into something complicated like the 15th century Liechtenauer material

yeah that's my aproach also, I just need to know what was the opinion of more experienced people in the area.
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Re: Parring in Liechtenaure

Postby Herbert » 21 May 2016 12:47

The HS 3227a is not only the first source in regard to Liechtenauer but also the first source of the longsword we have. In the german speaking sources the later ones concentrate either on Liechtenauer and, with more time, more and more alter his system and techniques. There are sources that are not linked with the Liechtenauer tradition but they are equally "special", some even more so.

It is almost impossible to learn a "normal" style first because we have really no idea what this means.
Learn the Liechtenauer stuff straight away. In the teachings of the masters there is very straightforward and simple stuff as well as sophisticated as well. Of course it makes sense to start with the simple things…Oberhau, Unterhau, the guards etc but you will be pulled in the more complicated techniques pretty fast. And all of these simple things are in the teachings as well. Any serious trainer will start with you on the easy things anyway…as will any modern good book or source about it.

This is not a bad thing though. The "simple" techniques are not so simple at all. It is the same as with learning any art. You need good sources or good teachers, a lot of time and energy, willpower and the rest is training.

So have fun, train safe and it will all sort out with time.

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Re: Parring in Liechtenaure

Postby Neuro » 21 May 2016 17:51

:D happy to see that people is answering the thread.
Anyway, I get what you are saying about the sources, but for example the teachings says something among the lines of "if he parry then...." so how should we learn to parry? similar to itialan stuff or infer through the counter technich how the parry was.

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Re: Parring in Liechtenaure

Postby Herbert » 23 May 2016 12:57

Neuro wrote::D happy to see that people is answering the thread.
Anyway, I get what you are saying about the sources, but for example the teachings says something among the lines of "if he parry then...." so how should we learn to parry? similar to itialan stuff or infer through the counter technich how the parry was.

Usually he states earlier or elsewhere how to parry this particular attack. Or the author makes some generalizations about parrying.

If it were that easy to work with these texts it wouldn't have taken us so many years to come to grips with it.

I guess it would be easier if you start working and then ask specific questions. We can then answer them and show you how the answers were found. This way you get a good insight into the working with a text.
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Re: Parring in Liechtenaure

Postby tea » 23 May 2016 14:50

If you just want to make a simple parry, a good general rule is to use ochs or pflug. Ochs is generally a bit nicer for setting up further attacks, but pflug is normally a bit safer and easier to use as a new fencer. I would strongly second Keith's advice to begin by working on making effective and quick oberhaw and unterhaw, and on parrying in pflug (or kron, for very high attacks).

This is reasonably easy to learn, is not an awful base of technique to fall back to if you forget fancier tricks, and can be extended quite nicely as you start to learn more complex actions.

Next I would probably add parrying in ochs, thrusts, defending in longpoint, and then cutting around as a response to a strong bind. Then you're basically in a state where you should just go study a sensible L. tradition manual directly (Ringeck is good).

The Broken Plow beginner's curriculum might be useful as a guide to how to approach stuff, although this is just one way to put it together, and I'd probably take a slightly different tack if you're a group trying to figure it out for yourselves, instead of a club teaching new fencers: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k10 ... f0wdc/edit

Also useful is the AHA Guide to German Longsword, which will give you a lot of useful fundamentals about guards and strikes to help you start to interpret manuals yourselves.

(One quick disagreement with Herbert: HS3227a is a source in the L. tradition, but we don't know if it is the first extant source, either in the L. tradition or more generally. It's too disconnected from the other manuals to be accurately dateable, and the range of just about plausible dates for it is over a hundred years. Fiore is the earliest confirmed longsword source, and the earliest firmly dated instance of the Zettel attributed to Liechtenauer is the 1440s.)
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Re: Parring in Liechtenaure

Postby Herbert » 24 May 2016 07:42

tea wrote:(One quick disagreement with Herbert: HS3227a is a source in the L. tradition, but we don't know if it is the first extant source, either in the L. tradition or more generally. It's too disconnected from the other manuals to be accurately dateable, and the range of just about plausible dates for it is over a hundred years. Fiore is the earliest confirmed longsword source, and the earliest firmly dated instance of the Zettel attributed to Liechtenauer is the 1440s.)

You are of course right in that these dates are talked about. The latter is purely because of a signature (if I remember correctly) and as such is not really a proof that it could not be older, especially because the calendar starts almost 100 years earlier (which doesn't make much sense if it was written that much later).
But yes, so far there is no real proof…carbon dating would be nice.

So at the moment these are opinions which can or can't be backed up with arguments. If I am wrong, please point it out so I can learn more.
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Re: Parring in Liechtenaure

Postby Neuro » 01 Jun 2016 19:42

Sorry for the late respone, I was busy whit the university.

I will follow then the advices of the more experienced ones, and start working then ask about the specifics. :wink:
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