Beginner Alert - Counter to the Zornhau

Liechtenauer lineage and related sources (eg. Sigmund Ringeck, Peter von Danzig, Paulus Kal, Hans Talhoffer), interpretation and practice. Open to public view.

Beginner Alert - Counter to the Zornhau

Postby VikingPsycho » 05 Nov 2014 21:01

Is there a specific counter to the Zornhau and other mid-cuts in which you parry with the strong and cut the head with the tip? It's rather similar to the Zornort but that's a thrust. It was a technique I learnt quite a while ago but completely forgot if it has a name and what it is.
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Re: Beginner Alert - Counter to the Zornhau

Postby KeithFarrell » 05 Nov 2014 23:14

There are quite a few counters that fit this description. The Zornhaw can counter the Zornhaw, as can the Schilhaw and the Zwerhaw. Each of these techniques works by catching the incoming attack with your strong and smacking him on the head or shoulder with your weak.
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Re: Beginner Alert - Counter to the Zornhau

Postby VikingPsycho » 27 Nov 2014 11:59

I apologise about the late reply.
What exactly is the difference between the Zwerchhau and Schielhau? At first glance they appear to be pretty much the same.
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Re: Beginner Alert - Counter to the Zornhau

Postby Andreas Engström » 27 Nov 2014 13:39

VikingPsycho wrote:I apologise about the late reply.
What exactly is the difference between the Zwerchhau and Schielhau? At first glance they appear to be pretty much the same.

Mechanically they are fairly similar, but the zwer is horizontal and counters cuts that come in vertically, the schiel is (almost) vertical and counters cuts that come in more horizontally.

I like to think of the right schielhaw as a right zwerch rotated 90 degrees to the left ("turned on its side"). If that makes sense. Where your hands should be high in the zwer to protect the head, in the schiel the hands are far to the left to protect the body.. more or less the same concerns but everything is rotated.

The similarity is of course mostly limited to the initial cut/counter - the set of followups from there on isn't always analogous. For example you will often strike around with a left zwer if the right fails, you will not often strike around with a left unterhaw with the long edge (which would be the analogous followup if everything was just rotated to the left) if your shiel fails, etc.

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Re: Beginner Alert - Counter to the Zornhau

Postby KeithFarrell » 27 Nov 2014 16:16

Andreas Engström wrote:Mechanically they are fairly similar, but the zwer is horizontal and counters cuts that come in vertically, the schiel is (almost) vertical and counters cuts that come in more horizontally.

I like to think of the right schielhaw as a right zwerch rotated 90 degrees to the left ("turned on its side"). If that makes sense. Where your hands should be high in the zwer to protect the head, in the schiel the hands are far to the left to protect the body.. more or less the same concerns but everything is rotated.

The similarity is of course mostly limited to the initial cut/counter - the set of followups from there on isn't always analogous. For example you will often strike around with a left zwer if the right fails, you will not often strike around with a left unterhaw with the long edge (which would be the analogous followup if everything was just rotated to the left) if your shiel fails, etc.

-Andreas


That very similar to how I view the two techniques - very similar mechanics and purpose, just one is rotated 90º from the other!
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Re: Beginner Alert - Counter to the Zornhau

Postby KeithFarrell » 27 Nov 2014 16:18

VikingPsycho wrote:I apologise about the late reply.
What exactly is the difference between the Zwerchhau and Schielhau? At first glance they appear to be pretty much the same.


If I may make a brief plug, my organisation has published a study guide for German longsword that provides a lot of information about the different positions, techniques and concepts within the system. If you are finding some of these things to be a bit confusing, then this book may well help you make sense of what you have learned in class :)

You can read a little more about the book on our website here:
http://www.historical-academy.co.uk/publishing/german-longsword-study-guide.php
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