PHMair - Staff plate 17

Liechtenauer lineage and related sources (eg. Sigmund Ringeck, Peter von Danzig, Paulus Kal, Hans Talhoffer), interpretation and practice. Open to public view.

PHMair - Staff plate 17

Postby Harry » 21 Mar 2013 17:52

Hi guys,

we are running a PHMair curriculum and the plan is to make a video diary of all his plays. we started with Staff and there are 22 plays, none of them is really hard to solve, but plate 17 is a complete mess. so therefore we would appreciate every help and input you can give to us.

many thx in advance
harry


text (german) of play 17

[size=24pt]Zwen ober stoß zu der Brust von irer linggen seitten[/size]

Item, schick dich also mit disem zufechten. Trit mit dainem linggen fuß zu im hinein, und stoß im mit deiner stangen von deiner linggen seitten zu seiner linggen brust zwischen seinen armen hinein. Steet er dann gegen dir auch in dem obern stoß von seiner lingken seitten, und hat seinen linggen fuß furgesetzt, und stost dir auch also nach deiner prust, so laß dein lingge hand von deiner stangen, und greiff damit in sein stangen bey seinem ort. In des wind im mit deiner rechten hand deinen ort under sein lingge uchsen, und trit mit deinem rechten fuß zu im hinein, wend dich damit auff dein rechte seitten mit kreutzweisen armen mit baiden stangen. So sperst du in, das er zu kainer arbait kann komen.

Hat er dich also beschlossen, das du mit deiner stangen zu kainer arbait komen kanst, so laß die stang behend fallen, setz deinen linggen fuß außwendig hinder seinen rechten, und greiff mit deiner rechten hand nach seiner rechten kniebug, und mit deiner linggen under sein rechte uchsen wol umb den leib hinumb, so würfst du in, das er dir kainen schaden kan zufuegen.


text (english)

[size=24pt]Two high jabs to the chest from your left sides[/size]

Item, conduct yourself with this technique as follows. Step in to him with your left foot, and jab your
staff from your left side in between his arms to the left side of his chest. If he stands against you also
in the high jab from his left side, with his left foot forward, and also jabs to your chest, then release
your left hand from your staff, and grasp his staff at the tip. Instantly wind your point under his left
armpit with your right hand, and step in to him with your right foot, then turn yourself to your right
side with crossed arms with both staves. Thus you bar him so that he cannot manage any work.

If he has locked you this way, so that you cannot manage any work with your staff, then quickly drop
your staff, set your left foot outside behind his right, and grasp with your right hand for the crook of
his right knee, and with your left under his right armpit well around his body, thus throwing him, so
that he can do you no harm.


text latin

[quote][size=24pt]Duo superni impulsus contra pectus formati de latere utriusque sinistro[/size]
In eum habitum hoc modo te compones, contra hostem pede sinistro procede, et hastam de latere tuo
dextro versus pectus ex parte ejusdem sinistra inter ejus brachium utrumque injicito. Sin autem is
vicissim contra te constiterit in habitu impulsus superni de latere suo levo, pedem sinistrum
preponens, pectusque tuum eodem modo adgreditur, tum ab hasta tua manum sinistram removebis, et
hastam adversarii juxta mucronem eadem adprehende, mucronem haste tue manu dextra inflectes sub
ejus axillam sinistram, contra adversarium pede dextro procedes, et brachiis cancellatis si in latus
dextrum deflexeris hasta utraque correpta, ita eum concludes, ut prorsus nihil adversus te possit
moliri.

Verum si te eadem ratione circumdederit, hastam abjicere memineris, pedem sinistrum exterius
adversarii dextro postpones, manu dextra ejus poplitem dextrum arripe, manum vero sinistram sub
ipsius axillam dextram circum corpus hostis regendo adplicabis, atque eo modo eum prosternes
absque tui corporis detrimento.
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"Take away all his weapons and than kick him in the ass" - Free Translation from the Viennese Gladiatoria
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Re: PHMair - Staff plate 17

Postby xn » 24 Mar 2013 19:44

Zwen ober stoß zu der Brust von irer linggen seitten[/size]

Item, schick dich also mit disem zufechten. Trit mit dainem linggen fuß zu im hinein, und stoß im mit deiner stangen von deiner linggen seitten zu seiner linggen brust zwischen seinen armen hinein. Steet er dann gegen dir auch in dem obern stoß von seiner lingken seitten, und hat seinen linggen fuß furgesetzt, und stost dir auch also nach deiner prust, so laß dein lingge hand von deiner stangen, und greiff damit in sein stangen bey seinem ort. In des wind im mit deiner rechten hand deinen ort under sein lingge uchsen, und trit mit deinem rechten fuß zu im hinein, wend dich damit auff dein rechte seitten mit kreutzweisen armen mit baiden stangen. So sperst du in, das er zu kainer arbait kann komen.

Hat er dich also beschlossen, das du mit deiner stangen zu kainer arbait komen kanst, so laß die stang behend fallen, setz deinen linggen fuß außwendig hinder seinen rechten, und greiff mit deiner rechten hand nach seiner rechten kniebug, und mit deiner linggen under sein rechte uchsen wol umb den leib hinumb, so würfst du in, das er dir kainen schaden kan zufuegen.


I would translate it:

Item, You perform this from the Zufechten. Pass with your left foot and stab him with your staff from your left side to his left breast between his arms. If he then stands against you as well in the high thrust from his left side and has his left foot set forward and thrusts upon your chest, release your left hand from your staff and grab his staff near the point. Simultaneously wind your point with your right hand under his left armpit and pass with your right foot towards him and wind your right side into crossed arms with both staves. Thus you bar him, so he cannot come to work.

If he has thusly bound you, so you cannot come to any work, allow the staff to fall, set your left foot wound-out, behind his right and grab with your right hand behind his right knee and with your left under his right armpit, well around the body, then you throw him so he can not bring you any harm.


Here is my video interpretation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n9KWQCxsmM&feature=youtu.be

I apologize about the camera rotation. Bigdummy cannot stop himself from rotating the camera and I don't have any video editing software. Also, I wrongly corrected myself from taking the step with my right foot, you'll see when. That's what I get from doing it from memory. It works either way though.

Hope this helps.
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Re: PHMair - Staff plate 17

Postby MEversbergII » 25 Mar 2013 02:12

Nice vid, even if it's on the side. Thank you for taking time to clarify your interpretation for us.

Also, from someone who does not have much Mair exposure, just how large are these little staves? The art makes them look scarcely more than a meter.

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

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Re: PHMair - Staff plate 17

Postby xn » 25 Mar 2013 03:40

Thanks and my pleasure.

What we are using are the 48" PHA III's ...seemed a reasonable length to me.
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Re: PHMair - Staff plate 17

Postby PH BAS » 26 Mar 2013 11:36

Nice, the interpretation of the video seems to be right. Even, if the grappling technique is from the other side..

The large of staff seems to be different between the differents books (for example, these ones presented in the Vienna manuscript are larger), but for some techniques it is usefull to have staff less than to 1.20m in lenght.
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Re: PHMair - Staff plate 17

Postby MEversbergII » 26 Mar 2013 17:15

So a walking stick length. Interesting. Mayhaps I will visit some translations of this section if I begin messing with Cane-based defenses!

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

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Re: PHMair - Staff plate 17

Postby xn » 27 Mar 2013 01:03

There's some interesting bits in that one, though I think the overall usefulness of that piece is pretty low.

1) It worked with either leg forward. Left leg forward was shown, but the right leg forward worked just as well, but required the thrower to leap further to get behind the left leg.

2) The text said `wind`, but really corkscrewing/hooking motion was required to get the point in the armpit.

3) There wasn't really anywhere interesting to go from the locked staves portion for the trapper. I could have kicked low or driven my opponent back, but no real way to inflict pain or damage and the person trapped could have just let go (and is in fact told to).

4) Thinking about length more, anything below 4' would be too short, anything over 5' would have changed the dynamics.
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Re: PHMair - Staff plate 17

Postby Harry » 31 Mar 2013 23:51

hi,

thx for the video, after watching it several times, I still have this problems with the interpretation...

1. your partner ist thrusting from his right side to your left side. the text says, thrust from your left to his left OR if we take the latin text, thrust from left to his right side.

2. you should attack him the same way, but you stand still and waited for his attack

3. the placing of the staff under the armpit is much more difficult if you attack from the correct side AND if you use staff and not swordwasters

4. you are turning to your left side with crossed arms, but the text says, turn to your right side with crossed arms

5. when you are in front of him, you have to be in front with your right leg, not with your left leg.

6. so also the final throw does not fit to the text.


your video shows the same interpretation we had, before we analyzed the text in detail and then all the problems had come up :D :D

never the less, I really appreciate your efforts. many many thanks!

harry
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Re: PHMair - Staff plate 17

Postby xn » 01 Apr 2013 13:30

et hastam de latere tuo dextro versus pectus ex parte ejusdem sinistra inter ejus brachium utrumque injicito


I believe this is saying:
and cast the staff from your right side against his chest on his left in between his arms


I would get a second opinion and definitely try and translate the entirety of the latin for that play.
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Re: PHMair - Staff plate 17

Postby Harry » 01 Apr 2013 21:02

I will do the same, my latin is quite limited, but a friend of mine whos latin is quite good meant this says from the left, to the right (and so would also be the title of the technique - two upper thrusts to the chest from the left side)
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"Take away all his weapons and than kick him in the ass" - Free Translation from the Viennese Gladiatoria
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Re: PHMair - Staff plate 17

Postby Harry » 03 Apr 2013 13:54

here is the english translation of the latin text...

Two upper thrusts against the breast, delivered from the respective left side

For this post yourself in this way, step with your left foot toward the opponent and thrust the staff from your right side against the left side of his breast between his both arms. So if he contrariwise is standing against you in the stance of an upper thrust from his left side, his left foot standing forward, and your breast is attacked in the same way, then let go of your staff with your left hand, and grab your opponent’s staff near its point, move the point of your staff with the right hand under his left armpit, step with the right foot against the opponent, and if you move with crossed arms on the right side with both grabbed staffs, so you will lock him in a way that he can effect absolutely nothing against you.

If he has truly constrained you in this way, remember to throw down the staff, place the left foot from the outside behind the right of your opponent, grab fast with the right hand his hollow of the right knee, lay the left hand truly under his right armpit around the body of the opponent in a controlling way, and in this way you fell him without damage to your body.


sooo, this will eliminate my first point :) from YOUR right side to HIS left side, you were true and the german version is wrong here! the rest of my 6 points are still valid.

besides... read the bold marked section... here the part of whoms right side you should move, his or yours. in the german version it should be yours.
MC-Stats (Won/Lost/Fought/Open: 2/2/4/4)

"Take away all his weapons and than kick him in the ass" - Free Translation from the Viennese Gladiatoria
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Re: PHMair - Staff plate 17

Postby Harry » 09 Apr 2013 06:46

any new inputs?
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"Take away all his weapons and than kick him in the ass" - Free Translation from the Viennese Gladiatoria
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Re: PHMair - Staff plate 17

Postby xn » 10 Apr 2013 15:28

I can re-vid on the 20th. My daughter was just born a couple of weeks ago and my schedule is crazy at the moment.
Knowledge is, in fact, not power. Practice is power.

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Re: PHMair - Staff plate 17

Postby Harry » 23 Apr 2013 05:52

xn wrote:I can re-vid on the 20th. My daughter was just born a couple of weeks ago and my schedule is crazy at the moment.



congrats buddy, I hope things are running smoother already :)
MC-Stats (Won/Lost/Fought/Open: 2/2/4/4)

"Take away all his weapons and than kick him in the ass" - Free Translation from the Viennese Gladiatoria
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