Unterhalten und Aufstehen

Liechtenauer lineage and related sources (eg. Sigmund Ringeck, Peter von Danzig, Paulus Kal, Hans Talhoffer), interpretation and practice. Open to public view.

Unterhalten und Aufstehen

Postby Megalophias » 16 Nov 2012 17:07

I was just wondering how people interpret the 3 Unterhalten and 3 Aufstehen in Ringeck?

I guess the first unterhalten is a hammerlock. The second seems to be a pretty straightforward pin where you kneel on his arm (and attacking the throat is a nice way to make him give you the other hand). But the third I cannot make heads nor tails of.

The first aufstehen sounds almost like pulling guard followed by a scissor sweep? The third also sounds like some kind of sweep, but the what the heck is the second?
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Re: Unterhalten und Aufstehen

Postby Angantyr » 24 Nov 2012 22:13

Good, an excuse to dig up the old Lindholm book, "Knightly arts of combat"!

First aufstehen for me sounds almost like pulling butterfly guard and sweeping him to one side. Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6_8cG_rE_M (There are tons of versions...)
The second... no idea. So I have to try it.
The third sounds like the Upa, one version from submissions 101: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sH7fF_Rcss

And the third unterhalten for me sounds like this: You attack his groin full force, this will naturally make him curl together, you use this to sweep his knees down to the side into the ground. Put your hand or knee on top of them to keep pressure and your opponent on the ground (sideways) and start hit him in the face. I Prefer to be "behind" him. (Now this did not make much sense. Might videotape it.)

A personal version of this ends up with me having my knee on his to keep him/her on the ground and facing sideways, one hand pinning down the elbow of the top hand for added control and the last hand doing the hammerfist into the nose / temple. (I end up almost sitting like in a "knee on belly" position on his side/knee and have in my mind a very good amount of control and also possibilities for escaping him or his buddies or attacking in different ways)

Often they will try to roll out, into a "turtle"-ish position to get out, that is no prob. We got some chokes in the books or you kan just stomp him in the back head if you are doing kampfringen. And I believe these are all part of kampf.
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Re: Unterhalten und Aufstehen

Postby Megalophias » 25 Nov 2012 12:56

Thanks! That's very helpful.

With the third unterhalten, I was thinking that you ended up between the other guy's legs, which would make it very hard to control both his legs with one arm. But if he is bringing his knees together to protect his groin, then it would make sense.
Jon Pellett

How do you know but ev'ry Bird that cuts the airy way,
Is an immense world of delight, clos'd by your senses five?
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