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Einhorn.

PostPosted: 20 Oct 2012 19:42
by Adam Duggan
Hi,
I'm new to the forum, so would like to say hello and I have a question to those who can answer it, regarding the guard 'Einhorn'.
I'm finding it very differcult to find the correct stance for this guard, as I've come across some vague descriptions. I've seen a few translations now that say it is the end position of unterhau and its a variation of the ochs guard. But surely this must be wrong, as why would such a logical system have two guards so similiar in the same position? Surely it makes more sense if 'Einhorn' is the end position of a thrust from ochs, turning the blade like you would in a 'Schlussel' thrust. For one thing the stance looks more like an unicorn. If this is true, then It could be the end of unterhau aswell, but you are left exposed, so you would have to change into another guard very quickly or do you go straight back to 'Vom tag'? As I've already said I haven't found a good description of this guard or a decent picture of it, can some one point me in the right direction please or simple just let me know. Thank you in advance.

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 20 Oct 2012 20:00
by Michael Chidester
Meyes describes it thusly: "Go with crossed hands up to your right, so that the tip extends up
in the air; this is called the Unicorn, and you stand as you can see in Image E in the figure on the right."

Image

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 20 Oct 2012 21:40
by Herbert
It is basically the end position of an Unterhau. There is a huge difference between the Ochs and the Einhorn. The intention, the movements and the body mechanics are all different.

Herbert

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 22 Oct 2012 12:35
by PH BAS
I'm think, like in PH Mair, that the unicorne (einhorn) on the right side, is the same position of the Ochs, but with your left hand returned (verkerter). It's possible to finish in this position from the Schlussel guard.

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 22 Oct 2012 13:23
by Michael Chidester
Mair has Einkiren, not Einhorn, and as you point out, it's not the same position.

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 22 Oct 2012 14:26
by PH BAS
Michael Chidester wrote:Mair has Einkiren, not Einhorn, and as you point out, it's not the same position.


Yes it's true, and monoceros in latin version...but aren't they the same beasts ?

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 22 Oct 2012 14:50
by Michael Chidester
The hand position is different, as you noted, and I don't think its intended use is the same either. Perhaps that's why Mair didn't call it "Einhorn" (or "unicorn", in Latin). This is a subject that I've actually been preoccupied with for some time now, and I don't have clear answers yet.

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 23 Oct 2012 16:16
by Adam Duggan
Thank you all for your comments, they've been most helpful, please continue.

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 25 Oct 2012 08:14
by Harry
hi adam,

to me, JM was quite influenced by his time and so it was state of the art to give any possible position a name. so to divide ochs from endposition unterhau he "invented" the einhorn (possibly) or the knichelhau etc.

you can see the same phenomenon at marozzo for example, he also overflows his students with names of guards, positions or cuts.

my 2 cents :)
cheers
harry

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 30 Oct 2012 17:54
by admin
So... if Einhorn is not the same as Ochs on the right because the former is the end of an unterhau, are you saying that Ochs on the right can not be the end of an unterhau? Sounds wrong to me.

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 30 Oct 2012 18:10
by Michael Chidester
If you did, Meyer would call it Einhorn.

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 30 Oct 2012 22:00
by Herbert
admin wrote:So... if Einhorn is not the same as Ochs on the right because the former is the end of an unterhau, are you saying that Ochs on the right can not be the end of an unterhau? Sounds wrong to me.

Let's put it this way: If, after an underhau, you point your point into your opponents face it is an Ochs. If you point it towards the ceiling it is an Unicorn.
There are of course differences in how you grip the sword - but on a very basic level, that is it.

Herbert

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 04 Nov 2012 11:41
by xn
I agree whole heartedly with Herbert.

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 04 Nov 2012 23:03
by Ben Floyd
I agree with Herbert as well.

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 31 Oct 2013 21:08
by The false edge
Hi, I'm new as well... Good reading here!
On topic:
We practice a drill that uses einhorn this way:
Start in wechsel, false edge facing the opponent, then cut diagonally up, displacing a cut or thrust, ending in einhorn with the true edge facing out (so the sword rotates during the displacement, avoiding edge on edge contact) Einhorn for us then is the end position, front hand quite high, arm almost straight, pommel hand held against and directly below the other arm, point facing up at 45ish degrees.
From the einhorn you can then lever the pommel past the elbow to make a shnit down do the opponents head (without moving the front hand apart from rotating).
Hope that gives you something to work with.

Jules

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 06 Nov 2013 11:08
by Reinier
Michael Chidester wrote:The hand position is different, as you noted, and I don't think its intended use is the same either. Perhaps that's why Mair didn't call it "Einhorn" (or "unicorn", in Latin). This is a subject that I've actually been preoccupied with for some time now, and I don't have clear answers yet.


I believe the latin Monoceros also means Unicorn...

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 06 Nov 2013 14:30
by Michael Chidester
Reinier wrote:I believe the latin Monoceros also means Unicorn...

Correct, but "unicorn" is itself a Latin word (and the correct term for the mythical creature, just like Einhorn), so again he seems to have intentionally not used the obvious word but instead chose a different one that means "single horn".

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 06 Nov 2013 14:52
by Reinier
I have heard several people say that Mair's Latin was not that good, and I myself also think so (based upon comparing the sickle sections in German and Latin). I think you are seeking too much behind this.

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 07 Nov 2013 01:42
by Michael Chidester
It's possible, but when I see two different physical positions with different names, I tend not to assume that they're the same thing.

Re: Einhorn.

PostPosted: 07 Nov 2013 09:06
by Reinier
Sorry - haven't been a longsworder for a long time - I (apparently) misremembered that they looked similar. What are the differences?