Krump

Liechtenauer lineage and related sources (eg. Sigmund Ringeck, Peter von Danzig, Paulus Kal, Hans Talhoffer), interpretation and practice. Open to public view.

Krump

Postby Ran Pleasant » 05 Sep 2012 16:52

CaptainAbrecan wrote:I just want access to the material ARMA has. Some of it has to be useful.

In the following video John Clements explains his interpretation of the Krump that has been used within ARAM for the last several years. Once you understand what Clements is doing then all of the stranger historical images will start to make sense, such as the two exmaples in included from from Pauls Mair.

Page containing Krump video.
http://www.thearma.org/Videos/TPVideos.htm


Pauls Mair plates on the Krump

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/0000/bsb00006570/images/index.html?fip=193.174.98.30&id=00006570&seite=40

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/0000/bsb00007894/images/index.html?fip=193.174.98.30&id=00007894&seite=117

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Re: Krump

Postby Jeremy S. » 05 Sep 2012 19:18

That's what Mr. Clements has been keeping to himself the last few years?

MS Germ.Quart.2020 wrote (via Mike Rasmusson) wrote:Glosa The arc strike is one of the four displacements against the four guards, in that with it one breaks the guard named the Ox, and it also drives onto the Over and Under Strikes. When you come to him in the pre-fencing, if he stands against you holding his sword before his head in the guard of the Ox, on his left side, then put your left foot forward, and hold your sword on your right shoulder, in the guard, and spring with the right foot well to your right side against him, and strike him with the long edge, from crossed arms, over the hands.


Seems pretty unambiguous, as does the accompanying image.

And this:
Ringeck wrote (via Keith Farrel) wrote:Glosa This is how you shall strike the Krumphau against the hands. When he cuts from his right side against an opening with an Oberhau or Underhau, take a spring away from the strike with your right foot, far out to his left side; and cut with crossed arms with the point to the hands. And even try this technique against him when he stands against you in the Ox guard.

along with the accompanying image.

And when you start looking at the analogous technique in the messer:
Lecküchner wrote (via Falko Fritz) wrote:Execute it like this: When you come to the man with the Zufechten and he holds his Messer in front of his head in the guard Stier on his left side, set your left foot in front and hold your Messer to your right shoulder or in the Schrankhut at your right leg. Leap to your right side with the right foot and strike onto his Messer with your true edge. Indes, wind your point into his face.


Each case (and others) does not match the current ARMA interpretation.

I'm a little curious how he can interpret a rising diagonal cut as being an oberhau. To each his own.

Thanks for putting the video up. I hope this means ARMA is opening up a bit more and is going to rejoin the wider community?
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Re: Krump

Postby Hotspur School » 05 Sep 2012 21:26

While I'm as perplexed as Jeremy, I have to first ask:

WHAT THE f*ck IS AN 'OAKS'?
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Re: Krump

Postby Ran Pleasant » 06 Sep 2012 17:43

Jeremy S. wrote:I'm a little curious how he can interpret a rising diagonal cut as being an oberhau.


At around 5:50 in the video Clements explains this by showing that the blade is traveling downward.

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Re: Krump

Postby Anders Linnard » 07 Sep 2012 15:33

Hi Randall, thanks for posting. The basic move works fine in sparring. I use it against Axel on the inside of the blade in this vid at 0:44 (hard to see because Axel is in the way):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mAWZ79WrO4

I like the interpretation and I have not heard anyone else interpret krump on the outside of the opponents blade. The basic movement isn't that far off from other interpretations, except John keeps his hands higher (which makes sense looking at the imagery), and that he does it on the outside. These two things makes it very interesting. I tend to make krump in a more horisontal way, except when going under his blade to shrank. I would have called the basic move that John does a zwerch zum pflug, which indeed is a very useful technique. But he may very well be right that it is indeed a krump. It's food for thought.

So in any case cool interpretation and thanks for showing us your stuff. I am not convinced it's the krump, but I will give it some more thought.

/Anders
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Re: Krump

Postby PH BAS » 07 Sep 2012 21:43

I'm not sure to understand this new interpretation, but like PH Mair's plates are showing, I'm here.

Just to precise that for Paul Hector Mair, the krump isn't only a technique, but a diagonal cut too. The difference is the move of the feet :

When you go on the left side of your opponent, you hit on his right side. And conversely.
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Re: Krump

Postby Ran Pleasant » 08 Sep 2012 20:47

Anders

I greatly appreciate your objective consideration of this new Krump interpretation.

In regard to the action you performed in the video please consider the following text from Ringeck (Tobler translation, 2003, page 40).

Ringeck wrote:This is how you should strike the Krumphau at the hands. When he attacks you from his right side with an Oberhau or Underhau, jump out of the strike with your right foot towards his left side and with crossed hands strike against his hands using the point.

We perform this Krump technique on the left exactly as you performed it. So I would absolutely say that you did perform a Krumphau in the vidfeo. As clearly seen in your video your hands went up and then you blade came down, thus it was an Oberhau and not an Underhau. The beauty of this technique is that even if you miss you are left in a good defensive hanging/Schranckhut guard.

In regard to Kumping into Schranckhut to set aside a cut it is easy to see how much more effect JC's interpretation is than windshield wiper/agile interpretation. JC's interpretation allows you to quickly get your blade in between the on coming blade and you body, whereas the windshield interpretation absolutely does not work since your blade can do little except chase the on coming blade.

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Re: Krump

Postby Anders Linnard » 08 Sep 2012 21:58

Well, I agree it's a useful technique, but I am still a skeptic in terms of it being a krump.

I am unsure what the agile interpretation is. My interpretation (others have the same idea) is that the krump is a cut that starts like the windshield but arches forward. The main difference with our interpretations is that you hold the hands higher (which makes it look like a zwerch to a low target) and the part on the outside of the blade, which isn't really necessary for the basic interpretation to work. The way I do it works well to break ochs, cut to the hands, go to the shrank etc. But I don't write things in stone and am always ready to change an interpretation. Or entertain several interpretations at once.

So, great that you share your thoughts and ideas. Thank you.
Anders

PS. Tell JC that he really, really must stop dressing like that. Seriously. It hurts my eyes.
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Re: Krump

Postby Matclarke » 09 Sep 2012 13:33

I came across a few interesting Krumphau points on the Meyer frei fechter Guild forum.

In one thread- http://216.242.127.82/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1621
Keith Myers quotes Meyer as saying (1.47r)

Krumphaw is executed in many ways, for all cuts that are delivered with crossed hands are called Krumphaw, thus the Schielhaw is also reckoned among the Krumphawen.


Under such an inclusive view, the ARMA krump could indeed be considered a Krump. Although, I do not think what JC shows is explicitly described in the usual Krumphau passages.

Meyer goes on a bit more (1.47r Forgeng's translation)-

It also doesn't matter whether they are done with the short or the long edge, as long as you hold your hands crosswise.


This description of what makes a Krumphau, causes me to think deeply about how we categorise a strike.

Another thread of interest is this one-
http://216.242.127.82/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1847

Where Roger Norling gives 3 variations of a Krumphau. Number 3, the soft Krump, was of most interest to me. I had not considered doing more of a 'catching' move, then cut over to trap their blade. This seems somewhat similar to what JC is doing.
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Re: Krump

Postby Stahlberg » 10 Sep 2012 08:58

Hello Ran

Very nice to see this! And, although I don't interpret Krumphau this way, I find JCs approach thought provoking. I can only repeat Anders thoughts in this regard. Nice going.

/Andreas
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Re: Krump

Postby Megalophias » 10 Sep 2012 18:02

Wait, is the parry the Krump, or the cut, or both together?

Damn, every time I think I know what the hell you longsword guys are talking about something like this comes up and I'm confused again. :cry: I thought that was a Zwerch he was doing.
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Re: Krump

Postby Matclarke » 10 Sep 2012 18:06

Megalophias wrote:Wait, is the parry the Krump, or the cut, or both together?

Damn, every time I think I know what the hell you longsword guys are talking about something like this comes up and I'm confused again. :cry: I thought that was a Zwerch he was doing.


I don't think you are wrong there. I think it is more Zwerch than Krump (ala zwerch to the plow).
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Re: Krump

Postby Ben Michels » 10 Sep 2012 18:19

Ran Pleasant wrote:As clearly seen in your video your hands went up and then you blade came down, thus it was an Oberhau and not an Underhau. The beauty of this technique is that even if you miss you are left in a good defensive hanging/Schranckhut guard.



This is the part that irks me the most. If he misses, he's in an upper hanger... which you cut to from an unterhau, or at best a mittelhau if you want to stretch it. You literally can't oberhau into an ochs.

Out of curiosity, if he were to untwist his hands and strike to the opposite, higher opening, would you call it an unterhau since the blade mostly traveled up?
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Re: Krump

Postby Jeremy S. » 10 Sep 2012 18:37

Ben Michels wrote:You literally can't oberhau into an ochs.

Sturzhau :wink:
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Re: Krump

Postby Michael Chidester » 10 Sep 2012 19:11

Ben Michels wrote:You literally can't oberhau into an ochs.

Short edge descending cuts naturally terminate in the upper hanger (whereas long edge descending cuts naturally terminate in the lower hanger, and vice versa for rising cuts). When I throw a diagonal Zwerchhaw, it terminates in Ochs every time.
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Re: Krump

Postby Ran Pleasant » 10 Sep 2012 20:49

Ben Michels wrote:
Ran Pleasant wrote:As clearly seen in your video your hands went up and then you blade came down, thus it was an Oberhau and not an Underhau. The beauty of this technique is that even if you miss you are left in a good defensive hanging/Schranckhut guard.


This is the part that irks me the most. If he misses, he's in an upper hanger... which you cut to from an unterhau, or at best a mittelhau if you want to stretch it. You literally can't oberhau into an ochs.

An cut is not defined by where it ends up (the end of the follow through), rather it is defined by the path of the blade during the attack. A Zorn is defined by its attack path to the upper right opening and not by its follow through path on the lower left side. In JC's interpretation of the Krump the blade travels downward during the actual attack. If the cut fails to hit then you can follow through to end in Ochs.

Out of curiosity, if he were to untwist his hands and strike to the opposite, higher opening, would you call it an unterhau since the blade mostly traveled up?

No, the traveling up would just be a re-positioning of the blade back into Kron. Once the blade is re-positioning back into Kron a person can cut any of the master cuts, all of which will travel downward. Of course, the re-positioning and the next cut would appear as a single motion. When you cut a windshield wiper/Agile Krump from the barrier guard your blade first travels up and then down, the upward movement is not the cut but just a re-positioning of your weapon.

Now that Aaron is part of you group I strongly suggest that as soon as possible you seek training with him on this interpretation of the Krump. If you spar with Aaron you can expect to have to defend against it.

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Last edited by Ran Pleasant on 10 Sep 2012 20:57, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Krump

Postby Ben Michels » 10 Sep 2012 20:49

Forgot about those. Sorry.

Still doesn't explain a blade that would be ascending had it not hit the target being called an 'oberhau.
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Re: Krump

Postby Ben Michels » 10 Sep 2012 20:53

Ran Pleasant wrote:Now that Aaron is part of you group I strongly suggest that as soon as possible you seek training with him on this interpretation of the Krump. If you spar with Aaron you can expect to have to defend against it.

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I don't have any doubt that Aaron would use it. A lot of us use similar cuts. We just don't call them krumphaus.
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Re: Krump

Postby Mink » 10 Sep 2012 21:11

There are three things that strike me as odd (I don't do longsword but since that interpretation was heralded as a number of generations above the rest I had to look :) ):
  • Footwork does not seem to fit the texts. Here JC makes a clear move forward and to the left with the left foot. The texts I've seen quoted seem to always indicate stepping to the right with the right foot. This invalidates the idea that this specific move is the krump
  • The whole explanation that this is not an unterhau is completely unintelligible, but others have already discussed that. Why is it even necessary? Do the text explicitly mark the krumphau as an oberhau?
  • I wouldn't necessarily be comfortable swinging my weapon around a sharp blade in this fashion. The cut here could actually push the opponent's blade on your own neck, and the harder you try to hit the more likely it is. In that particular demo no masks are worn, so I think the thruster is making some effort not to impact on the unprotected face (as evidenced by the fact that he is also thrusting off-target in at least one case).

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Re: Krump

Postby CaptainAbrecan » 11 Sep 2012 17:47

So all the hub-bub earlier this year that people were upset about was just because he used this ringeck source as a way to define the strike as a krump: "This is how you should strike the Krumphau at the hands. When he attacks you from his right side with an Oberhau or Underhau, jump out of the strike with your right foot towards his left side and with crossed hands strike against his hands using the point."

Sweet, glad I could learn something new. Reminds me of the first time I realized I could do all the crossed-arm short edge stuff with uncrossed arms if the pommel was inside the forearm. Big 'woahdude' moment.

Thank you for sharing RP! I really appreciate it.
Have yourself a good day :D
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