Zwerchau

Liechtenauer lineage and related sources (eg. Sigmund Ringeck, Peter von Danzig, Paulus Kal, Hans Talhoffer), interpretation and practice. Open to public view.

Re: Zwerchau

Postby Gil-Galadh » 24 Jan 2012 17:36

B. Cross wrote:We have done that zwerch many times with gear on and on full speed. .


Uhm, it's not my video, or a video of my group, but it's inspiring nonetheless. What I wanted to emphasize is that what you show does not look like the things we see in the manuscripts(and i just checked Wiktenauer, to be sure). Also if something works in sparring (especially between members of the same school) does not mean it will work in real situation, and it does not mean, it's what the masters have shown*
About, why I don't like the idea of zwerch with a stick, I'll just quote RIngeck:

[quote="Maestro Z. RIngeck]And as you spring turn your sword—with the hilt high in front of your head, so that your thumb comes under—and cut him with the short edge against his left side. So you catch his strike with your hilt and strike him in the head.[/quote]

Other manuscripts speak of using the strong of your blade and keeping the hilt in front of your head. In most cases, the enemy blade will reach the crossguard. If you have none(like in a stick) then you do not really need those fingers, do you?


*My rule of thumb is "If it does not look at least near to the thing in the manuscript, then something is wrong"
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Re: Zwerchau

Postby B. Cross » 24 Jan 2012 17:48

'in most cases' - Which is why if you do a zwech with a stick you have to do it a bit differently. I am not saying that a stick is the same as a longsword, I am merely saying that it is possible to zwerch with a stick against a sword. Especially when it is longer.

So you are saying that the only way to ensure that we are doong the zwerch right is to do it exactly as shown on the manuscripts? What about the lacking anatomy in most of those MSs?

By your quote of Ringeck, we are doing the zwerch exactly as descrbed when doing it with longswords. We have found in practice that to keep the cross too high is the same as to keep it too low, so when we do a zwerch we try to do it at a perfect kevel for each situation. And, of course, with a tick is more i portant that you get the blade of the opponent out of line, because you do not have the cross tomdefend ypu. While it is a bit different from Ringeck's description, it follows the same principle of a high horizontal strike with the short edge of the weapon, in the case of the stick the side turned to you.
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Re: Zwerchau

Postby Gil-Galadh » 24 Jan 2012 18:27

B. Cross wrote:'
So you are saying that the only way to ensure that we are doong the zwerch right is to do it exactly as shown on the manuscripts? What about the lacking anatomy in most of those MSs?

Well yes. And people always tell me I have two left hands or two left feet, so it only proves that the mauscripts are showing real things. true story
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Re: Zwerchau

Postby B. Cross » 24 Jan 2012 18:31

Some of them show two left legs... I certainly don't have those.
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Re: Zwerchau

Postby Page, A. » 27 Jan 2012 08:40

Hello guys, I am quite new to HEMA stuff, just trained couple of months by now. But however here's what Hanko Doebringer's manuscript, or as you call it - 3227a, says. I think it is rather clear what he ment.

"This is on the cross strike [Twerehaw].... do the cross strike [Twere] with the strong and note your work."

"And it goes across to both sides using both edges the foremost and the rearmost at all openings below and above."

"cast the sword aslant in front of the head"

"In the cross strike [Twerhaw] you turn the flat sides of the sword, one up and one down with the point horizontal, one [edge] to the right and one to the left side. And it is good to bind the opponent’s sword with this cross strike [Twerhaw].

"go up with the sword with your hand turned and the cross guard in front of your head so that you are well guarded and covered. You shall do the cross strike [Twerhaw] with a certain amount of power."

"with a step or leap, explode with a cross strike [Twerehaw] from high on the right side using the back edge straight at the head"

"win the after strike [Nachschlag] with the cross strike [Twerhaw] to the other side using the forward
edge
"

"throw the sword across above, well in front of your head so that you are well covered"


Just saying it because I didn't see it in this topic so far and this description seems important at least to me. Correct me if I am wrong, it is quite possible :oops:

Edit: WOW it is amazing how much information you can find here on board :D Such a nice place! :)
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Re: Zwerchau

Postby Andreas Engström » 27 Jan 2012 09:34

Hello there mr. Page, and welcome to the forum :-)

First off, be a little wary of that English translation (Lindholm's) of Hs3227a. It's quite old and in many places unfortunately not very reliable.
Just as an example, in the quotes you make, the word "explode" in the quote "with a step or leap, explode with a cross strike" is inserted by the translator for no good reason.
Another example is the word "turned" in the quote "go up with the sword with your hand turned". The word "vorworfner" doesn't mean "turned" as the translator apparently thinks, it means "thrown forward".
A third example is the word "aslant" in "cast the sword aslant in front of the head". This is freely invented by the translator, the original text says no such thing.

Just a few examples from your own quotes, there are many, many such small modifications and errors where I fear that the translator has let his own technique interpretations creep in instead of actually translating what the author says.

Second, it's as certain as you can reasonably get about anything that Hs3227a isn't "Hanko Döbringer's manuscript". He's just one of the "other masters" mentioned in one of the sections. The book is a compilation of many different treatises by many different authors, but the author of the longsword gloss is unknown, and unfortunately likely to remain so unless we can find an earlier copy with an attribution.

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Re: Zwerchau

Postby Page, A. » 27 Jan 2012 10:09

Well, yes, actually you are right!
Thank you for the note, Andreas!

Here what the original text says. If there's something wrong with it, please, let me know. It is the free pdf. edition, I don't know if there's better one.

"Twere mit der sterke"

"Und der get dar / zam dy twer czu beyden seiten mit beiden sneiden / der hindern und der vo[e]rdern"

"und mit den selben twer hewe / ist gar gut eyme an das swert czu komen /"

"das swert oben / mit dem gehilcze / mit vorworfner / hant / vor deme hewpte / das her io / wol bewart und bedekt ist"

"Und eyner sal dy twerhewe / etzwas mit / sterke dar brengen /"

"mit eynen schrete ader sprunge das her denne dar placzte /"

"den nochslag gewinnen / mit dem twerhaw czu der andern seiten / mit der vo[e]rdern sneiden"

"das swert oben dy twer / wol vor syn hawpt / werfen / das her wol bedekt sey /"

I don't know who exactly wrote this part of the manuscript, but whoever he was, it seems he knows good what he is talking about.

So we have:
- binden with the strong part of the blade
- with false edge from the right and the long edge from the left side
- done with power
- keeps your head safe behind the crossguard with your hands extended forth and head lower

Thank you for your reply!
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Re: Zwerchau

Postby Andreas Engström » 27 Jan 2012 11:16

Actually, the transcription also has quite a few errors. You probably want to refer to the newer and much more reliable transcription done by transcriber-machine extraordinaire Dierk Hagedorn of Hammaborg. :-)

http://www.hammaborg.de/en/transkriptio ... /index.php

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Re: Zwerchau

Postby Page, A. » 27 Jan 2012 14:43

Thank you, Andreas!
I will have some fun comparing the two transcribtions :))

However, I checked the lines for the Zwerg, and here they go (sorry if I am getting boring, guys)

"Twere mit der sterke "
"czu beyden seiten mit beiden sneiden / der hindern vnd der vörd°n / czu allen blossen "
"ist gar gut eyme an das sw°t czu kome~ "
"vnden ader oben / zo get im io das sw°t obñ / mit dem gehilcze / mit vorworfner / hant / vor deme hewpte / das her io wol bewart vnd bedekt ist "
"eczwas mit / sterke dar bre~ge~ "
"mit eyne~ schrete ader spronge das her deñe dar placzte"
"den nochslag gewiñen / mit dem twerhaw czu der and°n seiten / mit der vörd°n sneiden "
"wol vor syn hawpt / werfen / das her wol bedekt sey"

It is quite the same as those above.
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Re: Zwerchau

Postby Andreas Engström » 27 Jan 2012 15:03

Page, A. wrote:It is quite the same as those above.

Almost. Slight difference in spelling of "vördern". But that makes no semantic difference in this instance. I simply wanted to direct you to the more modern and updated transcription. :-) Don't forget to check out all the other transcriptions Dierk kindly provides on that site.

But that aside, what is it that you want to say? I'm pretty certain that most of us here absolutely agree with the author of 3227a.. the only difference would appear to be that mr. Cross feels comfortable with keeping the hilt rather lower than most of the rest of us feel is safe. Is it this you want to point out too, or did you have any deeper hidden agenda? :-)

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Re: Zwerchau

Postby Page, A. » 27 Jan 2012 15:16

I simply wanted to direct you to the more modern and updated transcription.

Yes, yes, thank you, don't get me wrong! I know that.

what is it that you want to say

Nothing special, I just didn't see quotes and discussion about the description of Zwerghau from this manuscript and it's a good description, I think, so it is worth the attention. As for the hands postion - you got me right - this is exactly what I think and also it is cleraly said in the verses above (i didn't think out it by myself, of course :) ) . This was one of the points that provoked me posting the quotes. It is said at least 3 times that you should place your hands high and infront of your head so to be covered.

Greetings and all the best!

Edit: It would be very usefull if there's a video of some kind, that shows this. Could someone recomend something acording to this description?
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Re: Zwerchau

Postby B. Cross » 27 Jan 2012 19:28

Just to point something out - I do not keep the position of the cross at a fixed point. Instead, how high is your Zwerch depends on the opponents tempo, distance, sword, and intent, or simply said, on fuehlen. Of course, there is a point too high and too low, where you either have no protection of you open yourslf for easy mutations from your opponent.
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Re: Zwerchau

Postby Alex B » 27 Jan 2012 23:00

B. Cross wrote:Just to point something out - I do not keep the position of the cross at a fixed point. Instead, how high is your Zwerch depends on the opponents tempo, distance, sword, and intent, or simply said, on fuehlen. Of course, there is a point too high and too low, where you either have no protection of you open yourslf for easy mutations from your opponent.

Have you ever tried keeping the cross at roughly the same height but just changing the height of the point? I think lowering the point but keeping the cross high works much better than lowering the cross.
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Re: Zwerchau

Postby B. Cross » 28 Jan 2012 16:14

If you have to go low and your hands are as high as that, anyone with some tempo can push on and make a schwertnehmen, or just mutate and stab you around yourmsword before you can throw the other zwerch or withdraw.
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Re: Zwerchau

Postby Herbert » 29 Jan 2012 20:33

B. Cross wrote:If you have to go low and your hands are as high as that, anyone with some tempo can push on and make a schwertnehmen, or just mutate and stab you around yourmsword before you can throw the other zwerch or withdraw.

:twisted: You are invited to try this.
If your opponent is able to do this then there is a lot more wrong than just the way you are holding your hilt.

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