New fencing video comments welcome

[bigdummy]

Weekly sparring clip from yesterday, trying out the new clear-polycarbonate facemask / helmet (see review in the general hema forum)

We are well into fall now and the blanket of humidity has finally gone out of the air so our fencing is starting to get a bit more brisk now, not as slow and cumbersome as during the summer. I was really pleased with the new mask it made it much easier to track my opponents movement and weapon.


The first several bouts are with the shorter 44" bastard swords the last few with the normal sized 48" longswords.

BD

[Frede Jensen]

You both seem to be quite off balance when you attack/retreat. You both almost jump in when you attack. I think it might help you to focus a bit more on staying "centered" so you can better keep you balance.

Also you start of waaay to close to each other. I think that if you started up further apart you can eliminate some of those pesky and sneaky sniper hits to the hands.
We had a long frustrating period where all that seemed to work was sniping the hands, but then we changed our distance and they almost instantly disappeared. And we began to be able to perform techniques and actually have them work.

When starting further apart, you have to thing more about you timing and balance when you enter the fight. But after some time it comes rather natural.

And thanks for sharing. It is always brave to put oneself on display for the bloodthirsty internet critics..

- F -

[Wolfgang Ritter]

Hi,
thanks for putting the clip online, I appreciate anyone who dares to do so....
The one thing I noticed is, that you (and your opponents) almost never try to do something out of a bind after the initial attack. It's a constant attack and retreat. Well, you keep on attacking sometimes, but there is no binding, no wind, no thrusts, no wrestling. Of course this is, what most freeplay-vidoes show, but that should be the next step: to figure out, what to do after the initial attack, what to do in a short range distance, what to do out of a bind....

Regards
Wolfgang

[bigdummy]

Yeah I was a little off-balance a couple of times, overenthusiasm on my part, partly because of the new mask I think, and my footwork is still pretty bad. I don't think my opponents were off balance though.

The other issues are mostly with the simulators we were using, the distance / close-range I think is due to the short weapons in the first two thirds of the clip, the 44" swords, they are a little too light and quick which makes counterstriking without even a second step the fastest option in krieg many times. It distorts the fencing a little. That and I always tend to press the attack...

The padded wasters in general aren't all that good in the bind because they are a bit too bouncy, but the longer ones have a different tempo which allows much more in terms of grabbing, winding etc., but it still doesn't always happen. We also have been consciously avoiding the ringen stuff right now for a couple of reasons (mainly the location where we are fencing).

Thanks for the critique. Believe me I don't mind pointing out flaws.

[Wolfgang Ritter]

The padded wasters in general aren't all that good in the bind because they are a bit too bouncy, but the longer ones have a different tempo which allows much more in terms of grabbing, winding etc., but it still doesn't always happen. We also have been consciously avoiding the ringen stuff right now for a couple of reasons (mainly the location where we are fencing).

Thanks for the critique. We'll see if we can do better next time.

I see, that's pretty much what I expected to be the reason.
That's why I try to have some variety in freebouts, using simulators (weighted shinai in my case) and blunt steel (with different protection gear then). Because then you can train different things.
About the ringen stuff, well, I understand the problem (= dangerous ground), but then you're limiting yourself. Go and get yourself some decent training place - or just don't let them wrestle you down!!!!

[Frede Jensen]

You may have misunderstood me.

Of course the length of the weapons varies the distances. But what I meant was that you start just outside striking range. Try starting 10 paces from each other and see if that does not change the fight. Just walk straight towards each other, don't circle and don't stop when you come into your normal distances! That way you have time to set up you attacks better and avoid sniping. The sniping will always be faster when you start out that close but if yo start your attacks from a little more distance you can attack and be protected all the way.

It helped us enormously.

- F -

[bigdummy]

Ok Frede we'll try that out, thanks.

BD

[Harry]

Weekly sparring clip from yesterday, trying out the new clear-polycarbonate facemask / helmet (see review in the general hema forum)

We are well into fall now and the blanket of humidity has finally gone out of the air so our fencing is starting to get a bit more brisk now, not as slow and cumbersome as during the summer. I was really pleased with the new mask it made it much easier to track my opponents movement and weapon.


The first several bouts are with the shorter 44" bastard swords the last few with the normal sized 48" longswords.

BD

ok... my 2 cents...

BD your footwork is too less. I am also a heavy guy, but you have to move your feet much more. It seems that you come always out of balance because your upper body is to far in front.

keep a better control about your weapons (both of you). sometimes it looks more like fly catching than historical cuts.

most of the time you both were in a bad distance. far to close but noone of you took the advantage of nice fast thrust.

I don't know if you are doing fiore ar german tradition. if you are doing german tradition you are doing some really bad guards (e.g. ochs)

and finally as far as I can evaluate it, you are attacking without selfprotection and without breaking the opponents guards.

thx for your tape, I learned a lot again, because most of the mistakes I do also by myself (less footwork and bad distance)

[bigdummy]

ok... my 2 cents...

BD your footwork is too less. I am also a heavy guy, but you have to move your feet much more. It seems that you come always out of balance because your upper body is to far in front.

Yes my footwork is crap, not quite as bad as it used to be.

keep a better control about your weapons (both of you). sometimes it looks more like fly catching than historical cuts.

Yes I think that was due to the short simulators partly, we are having a problem with our simulators right now because several of them wore out at the same time and a couple were lost, were using some currently which aren't really good. Should repair that this week with some new weapons ones of proper length and weight hopefully next week.

most of the time you both were in a bad distance. far to close but noone of you took the advantage of nice fast thrust.

They actually do, this is partly due to how I fight. I like to counterattack and tend to try to invite attacks so I'm usually trying to get them to thrust so I can get a bind. I think you'll see a different balance of this in our other fencing footage between other guys in our group, for example this other recent clip which has more fencing with the larger simulators (after the first 30 seconds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZQi2gMF3xw

though perhaps other problems and issues there as well.

I don't know if you are doing fiore ar german tradition. if you are doing german tradition you are doing some really bad guards (e.g. ochs)

Lichtenauer tradition, those "bad" Ochs are probably hangen

and finally as far as I can evaluate it, you are attacking without selfprotection and without breaking the opponents guards.

thx for your tape, I learned a lot again, because most of the mistakes I do also by myself (less footwork and bad distance)

I tend to press the distance always to force the other guy to act, since being fat I often can't chase them down as well, so I'll push close to make them strike or thrust so I can try to catch them in the vor. This is a bad habit I get into sometimes, a distortion in my fencing, which I think is exascerbated by the short weapons. But it helps me win bouts so it gets reinforced.


I do highly reccomend filming yourself sparring so that you can see your mistakes, and occasionally posting videos online so that other people can point out errors you see but don't recognize. It has helped my fencing a lot.

I'll see if I can do better next week.

BD

[zarlor]

I can't see the vid for some reason (it says it was removed), but for my part I was just not getting anywhere on Saturday. I don't know why but sometimes you just don't "feel" it, and I was definitely not feeling it. The whole fight seemed to be going way too fast for me. (If I'm in there, I'm the one with the steel barbute.)

At any rate, some of the commentary here does have a bit more to do with the fact that we have a relatively small number of folks to bout with and you really start to get to know each other's styles a lot and that plays into how you fight each other and what things you pull out of your arsenal.

Personally I always fight off-balance, in a way, but a lot of that has to do with coming heavily from a rapier background and having a pretty keen sense of distance (I think) such that I use a LOT of body voiding. I probably should do more voiding through footwork, though. Of course I also actually have crap balance to begin with (always have) so I fight within my own bodily constraints of what my body will let me do.

My guards are also probably a bit odd looking because I've also been trying to work more from Marozzo, so you'll see some things that probably don't look right if you're working from the schools most folks here tend to work from. I've also only half-assed that part of it, though. I need to really dig into Marozzo more, but I just haven't gotten around to doing it. Besides his plays are really two-handed sword plays.

As for the whole ringen side of it... it's not for me. You can put down mats all day long, if I were in a real fight I'd be avoiding it like the plague and doing absolutely everything to keep it always at a distance. Maybe that's the rapier side coming out, but I also get migraines and sometimes a good jarring of the head is enough to kick one off. I think I'd rather have my arm broken than put up with a migraine. (Yeah, they can be that bad... worse, even.) Plus these guys can be a bit brutal! I'm in this more for fun than to be able to kill people at the drop of a gauntlet. I think sometimes BD gets frustrated with me just for that attitude alone. The rest of the community probably feels free to dismiss me as "unserious", but oh well.

[Wolfgang Ritter]

Hi Lenny,
it's a common problem that you get to know what your regular training partner does. I try to "solve" it by trying to change my attitude in a fight. That is, try out something different - if you're used to lay into a guard and wait, switch to constantly moving through guards and maintaining the attack; change your tempo of moving around/changing guards/attacking from time to time. It always surprises me how a change in the speed you're moving around is enough to lull an opponent.....

About the Ringen stuff: I hate ringen a lot. But then again, there are situations in a fight, where a grapple was not only a possible solution, but a must. It seems as if you guys actively avoided grappling; therefore some of the retreats were dangerous because it took you more time to retreat and get a safe distance, than to rush in and grapple (...well, that's the theory, I wouldn't rush in and wrestle Harry - for very obvious reasons if you see the two of us together - and BD seems to be in a matching weight class to Harry...).
But if you don't want to wrestle, punch and kick at the guy if you're that close!

And as has been said: the guards looked liechtenauer'ish - but then not truely as described and shown in the manual.
No matter if it was supposed to be Ochs or higher Hängen - lift your cross above the head! That's mainly BDs problem, but I always wanted to simply hit hard at his blade, when he moved to Ochs. Because he held it nearly all the time far too close to his head/cheek. Very dangerous if you're NOT wearing a helmet.

Regards
Wolfgang

[bigdummy]

i don't get frustrated with your fencing lenny. I also don't think you fight off balance in the sense that you aren't in control (like I was a couple of times)

youtube made me take the vid down (and another one) due to the music I put in at the end. I'll take the music out and upload it to our website though.

And I'll work on my Ochs. Do you mean my right-Ochs Wolfgang? Did you see problems with any of my other guards?

BD

[Harry]

i don't get frustrated with your fencing lenny. I also don't think you fight off balance in the sense that you aren't in control (like I was a couple of times)

youtube made me take the vid down (and another one) due to the music I put in at the end. I'll take the music out and upload it to our website though.

And I'll work on my Ochs. Do you mean my right-Ochs Wolfgang? Did you see problems with any of my other guards?

BD

@ochs: you should lift your crossguard higher than your head and it should be also in front of your head and not next to.

I hope it is understandable what I wanted to say

[Fab]

@ochs: you should lift your crossguard higher than your head and it should be also in front of your head and not next to.

Heh that's what I keep repeating to our newest members.

[bigdummy]

i don't get frustrated with your fencing lenny. I also don't think you fight off balance in the sense that you aren't in control (like I was a couple of times)

youtube made me take the vid down (and another one) due to the music I put in at the end. I'll take the music out and upload it to our website though.

And I'll work on my Ochs. Do you mean my right-Ochs Wolfgang? Did you see problems with any of my other guards?

BD

@ochs: you should lift your crossguard higher than your head and it should be also in front of your head and not next to.

I hope it is understandable what I wanted to say

Yes thanks Harry I didn't realize i was doing that, I have a bad habit of sometimes dropping my point in a hangen in the hope of catching the other guy in a bind, and sometimes I let the sword drift out of guard I think.

BD

[bigdummy]

@ochs: you should lift your crossguard higher than your head and it should be also in front of your head and not next to.

Heh that's what I keep repeating to our newest members.

I guess I'm a newb

[HuubB]

@ochs: you should lift your crossguard higher than your head and it should be also in front of your head and not next to.

Heh that's what I keep repeating to our newest members.

I guess I'm a newb

you at least take effort in progressing, which is a very good sign.

Bert Bruijnen
KDF Netherlands

[bigdummy]

Not very fast apparently since i've been doing HEMA for six years, stick fighting for about 25

But they don't call me dummy for nothing

BD

[David A Teague]

Hello BD,

Here's my 2 cents...

I'm seeing a lot (not all) of people closing straight in and not to the side with a proper "slope pace".

I'm seeing blows being struck without foot work... ok if in kreig, not good at wide measure. The comment on the hutten have already been covered

Sniping attacks that have a withdraw built in... i.e. your not using the concept of the three wounders... I'm not seeing much nach being turned into vor.

zarlor said "Personally I always fight off-balance"

Say what??? In this system you need to be balanced or a good Liechtenauer fencer will use that against you. The advice I give my students is learn how to keep styles separated in your brain.

BD said "They actually do, this is partly due to how I fight. I like to counterattack and tend to try to invite attacks so I'm usually trying to get them to thrust so I can get a bind"

The point of the system is to hit the other guy As a broken down 50 year old with a rebuilt leg I do have to work from Nach far more than a younger student so I think I know what your saying here... but... look to the 5 hidden strikes to regain vor, not just hoping for a bind.

If you guys can work on improving measure,footwork and leaning how to stay in krieg things should improve a bunch.

Cheers,

David

[bigdummy]

I really think the issues that were raised about that last video were about 80% due to the simulators, we don't have the type we used to use currently as a couple were lost and several wore out at the same time. Most of the ones in that vid are way too short and light which really distorts things like distance and whether you step when you strike. i really do not think I have an issue with distance.

But I'd like to suggest it might be helpful for people to post videos of what they feel is proper technique in the specific examples cited, particularly of themselves or people from their group.

I'm going to do some long overdue rebuilds on some of our simulators this week and hopefully make a couple of new ones, and ... like I said, we'll see if we can do a little better.

I am interested in learning from criticism, and for what it's worth, I know I have a pretty weird fighting style (not to mention shape) and a lot of mistakes to correct in my form, but I got to be honest, I think Lenny, Christian and Skip are pretty good longsword fencers compared to what I usually see online. I guess it just depends on what you are used to looking at.

BD